23/08 Low Speed Derailment at Tonbridge

[Minstral25]

Apparently there is disruption at Tonbridge this morning due to a derailment at Jubilee Sidings. Any details out there. Last year there was a similar Derailment at Redhill Carriage Sidings - is there a local problem with carriage sidings or just coincidence?

 

[2HAP]

Southeastern have tweeted that engineering works between Tonbridge and Sevenoaks means that trains are diverted via Redhill. But due to the derailment, no trains running between Tonbridge and Redhill.

 

[Need2]

Unfortunately, it would appear that a driver had a spad and was tipped into the dirt.

 

[trainmania100]

377317 from a picture ive seen on facebook

 

[2HAP]

 

[greaterwest]

Unfortunately, it would appear that a driver had a spad and was tipped into the dirt.

That, however, will ultimately be up to the RAIB to decide.

 

[GB]

That, however, will ultimately be up to the RAIB to decide.

Contrary to popular belief, the RAIB do not investigate nor report on every incident or derailment. The TOC and NR already know what happened in this incident.

 

[KingJ]

Earlier in the day, prior to Southern getting a unit from the other end of the line, Southeastern trains which were diverted via Redhill due to engineering works between Tonbridge and Sevenoaks were making stops at the intermediate stations to cover - giving stations like Penshurst direct services to Charing Cross and Hastings.

Trains are currently using the Up Redhill Reversible line in both directions, with trains towards Tonbridge crossing over at the points at the Western end of Tonbridge West Yard. Although the derailed train isn't fouling the Down Redhill Reversible line from what I could see, I imagine this is being kept clear as a precaution and/or to allow safe access to the other side of the derailed train?

 

[Need2]

That, however, will ultimately be up to the RAIB to decide.

I have seen an 'internal' report (of sorts that was forwarded to me,nothing secret or private!) and the driver has admitted to the spad.
As mentioned in the other post, the investigation is down to the TOC.

 

[JN114]

Last year there was a similar Derailment at Redhill Carriage Sidings - is there a local problem with carriage sidings or just coincidence?

Coincidence

Tonbridge Jubilee Sidings are fully signalled, and it appears that the root cause of the derailment was a SPAD

Redhill Loco Sidings is all handpoints, and the root cause of the derailment there was the train being driven over a set of points that weren’t set correctly

Contrary to popular belief, the RAIB do not investigate nor report on every incident or derailment. The TOC and NR already know what happened in this incident.

All derailments should be reported promptly to RAIB, along with any preliminary investigatory findings. RAIB then decide whether to conduct their own investigation or if they’re happy NR and TOC/FOC have it in hand. If there is safety learning for the industry to take away then they may produce a safety digest or full report; but often there is nothing for them to investigate.

I imagine this is being kept clear as a precaution and/or to allow safe access to the other side of the derailed train?

Sounds more than likely. Also while a train may not appear foul, a derailed train is not as stable, so is more liable to be disturbed by trains passing very close by.

 

[Minstral25]

Coincidence

Tonbridge Jubilee Sidings are fully signalled, and it appears that the root cause of the derailment was a SPAD

Redhill Loco Sidings is all handpoints, and the root cause of the derailment there was the train being driven over a set of points that weren’t set correctly

Thanks - thought that would be the case.

Redhill has never been fixed since so perhaps they are saving up for some signals.

 

[mcmad]

Trains are currently using the Up Redhill Reversible line in both directions, with trains towards Tonbridge crossing over at the points at the Western end of Tonbridge West Yard. Although the derailed train isn't fouling the Down Redhill Reversible line from what I could see, I imagine this is being kept clear as a precaution and/or to allow safe access to the other side of the derailed train?

Depending on what vintage the signalling is there may be a track circuit interrupter on the traps which will drop the track circuit on the adjacent line.

 

[JN114]

Thanks - thought that would be the case.

Redhill has never been fixed since so perhaps they are saving up for some signals.

Redhill Loco Sidings will be partially reinstated very soon, although not for overnight stabling yet.

 

[KingJ]

Sounds more than likely. Also while a train may not appear foul, a derailed train is not as stable, so is more liable to be disturbed by trains passing very close by.

Depending on what vintage the signalling is there may be a track circuit interrupter on the traps which will drop the track circuit on the adjacent line.

Thank you both for the information. I notice that Southeastern's disruption page also now mentions that "Because of some damage to a part of the signalling system, train drivers have to get verbal instructions before they travel over the junction". Earlier on, I did see that someone was at the base of the signal and that trains towards Tonbridge would approach it at red, stop and then slowly pass.

 

[MarkyT]

Depending on what vintage the signalling is there may be a track circuit interrupter on the traps which will drop the track circuit on the adjacent line.

1990s SSI signalling controlled from Ashford IECC and there will definitely be an interrupter. The layout there suggests once activated it will hold the track circuit on the adjacent line occupied, so signals will not be able to clear. The bi-di signalling on the up line is fortunate to allow an alternative route for down trains without special working methods.

 

[Surreytraveller]

That, however, will ultimately be up to the RAIB to decide.

No its not

 

[trainmania100]

Guessing a crane will be required to get it back on track

 

[Surreytraveller]

Guessing a crane will be required to get it back on track

I wonder how long that will take to organise, and how much stock is trapped in the sidings?

 

[KingJ]

Southeastern are now estimating that the disruption will continue through to Monday night - with fewer trains running between Tunbridge Wells and London Charing Cross on Monday. As a result, they're warning that "Hastings Line services are likely to be busier than normal throughout the day and social distancing may not always be possible."

Guessing a crane will be required to get it back on track

Quite possibly, or at least something not readily available - "Specialist recovery staff have now assessed the methods needed to move the derailed train and they are arranging for the correct equipment to be sent to the site."

 

[Surreytraveller]

Can cranes be organised at such short notice - depends where they are located, and whether staff are available to operate them

 

[trainmania100]

Guess it's more than just the Balfour Beatty and colas cranes you see in engineering consists locally

 

[Domh245]

Only one bogie off the rails by the look of it? Should be possible to do it with jacks rather than a full crane lift I'd have thought?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Crane is at Warrington isn’t it?

 

[aleggatta]

I think it should be more than possible to re-rail the conventional way (with jacks). Might have to get the con rail temporarily removed to facilitate it though! Also, it seems that there shouldn't be much flashover related repairs as would have been the case if it had not been thrown so far into the dirt.

 

[alistairlees]

I wonder how long that will take to organise, and how much stock is trapped in the sidings?

I think there were at least two 465s trapped in the sidings. They were not particularly full. I went past earlier.

 

[GB]

Crane confirmed as being required. Not surprising really considering there is no track under the front of the train to jack back onto.

 

[KingJ]

I think there were at least two 465s trapped in the sidings. They were not particularly full. I went past earlier.

I made out roughly 30 carriages worth of 465/466 in there, along with a Soutthern 377/3. I may be miscounting slightly - it's a little tricky on a zoomed-in photo!

If it is 30 carriages though, then that's 3 full sets out of the Tunbridge Wells - London diagrams given they normally run as 465+465+466.

 

[MarkyT]

I think it should be more than possible to re-rail the conventional way (with jacks). Might have to get the con rail temporarily removed to facilitate it though! Also, it seems that there shouldn't be much flashover related repairs as would have been the case if it had not been thrown so far into the dirt.

Dad, who attended countless derailments and more serious accidents over his railway career, always told me the best way to deal with a minor derailment is to pull the stock back the way it came off in the first place, packing and jacking as appropriate of course. A difficulty with electric traction is if the feeder for the unit to power itself is damaged and isolated. And in this case, as its a dead-end yard there's no way to get a diesel in to haul it back either.

 

[aleggatta]

Dad, who attended countless derailments and more serious accidents over his railway career, always told me the best way to deal with a minor derailment is to pull the stock back the came off in the first place, packing and jacking as appropriate of course. A difficulty with electric traction is if the feeder for the unit to power itself is damaged and isolated. And in this case, as its a dead-end yard there's no way to get a diesel in to haul it back either.

I always thought that would be the case (theoretically) but never experienced it myself in reality as a solution. I remember one time I was working on a unit that had experienced a derailment, and it came to rest with its traction motors resting on the con rail. it was determined that it would be quicker and easier to do a bogie swap on the coach than change the traction motors, all the wheelset bearings and the damaged shoegear. This might have only been the case as C4's were already happening up the road and so all the parts would have been virtually 'ready to fit'.

That being said, if they could make traction current safe on the unit, and remove any con rail that was to be an obstruction, there wouldn't be anything stopping them from coming up behind with one of the berthed units to attempt a drag back...

 

[trainmania100]

Does anyone have pics of a crane being used in a re rail ment like what'll happen at Tonbridge, from past incidents?