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23 Prosecutions in Bristol.

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Dai Corner

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Almost two dozen people have been forced to pay more than £10,000 for avoiding train fares in Bristol.

In some cases, the tickets would have cost them just a few pounds - but not buying one now means they have to fork out hundreds.


All 23 offenders were sentenced during a fare dodging blitz at Bristol Magistrates’ Court on Wednesday, December 18.

The majority of fares were dodged on Great Western Railway (GWR) services - which is the main rail operator in the South West - and more than half of the dodgers were caught out during trips to Bristol Temple Meads station.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/gwr-fare-dodgers-temple-meads-3687002
I haven't copied the list of names and fines but what I found interesting was that all but one, who admitted the offence, were found guilty in their absence.
 
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PeterC

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That'll be 22 new threads in a few months time then!
I would love to read the excuses for not paying.

Considering that my ticket was checked on the train by GWR staff in both directions for a day trip from Oxford to Worcester I find it disturbing that people making much longer trips costing three figures managed to get to their destination without any intermediate checks.
 

Haywain

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Considering that my ticket was checked on the train by GWR staff in both directions for a day trip from Oxford to Worcester I find it disturbing that people making much longer trips costing three figures managed to get to their destination without any intermediate checks.
By contrast, I travelled from Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads yesterday without a ticket check, so quite easy to get to the destination without a check. And that was after passing through open barriers at Paddington.
 

Bertie the bus

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Almost two dozen people have been forced to pay more than £10,000 for avoiding train fares in Bristol.

Really? Almost two dozen people have been fined more than £10,000 and almost two dozen people won't pay it.
 

packermac

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https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/gwr-fare-dodgers-temple-meads-3687002
I haven't copied the list of names and fines but what I found interesting was that all but one, who admitted the offence, were found guilty in their absence.
I did wonder what "proved in her (or his) absence actually entails. I assume it means this was the name and address given, which may or may not be true of course. Also why the amount due seems to bear little correlation to the fare avoided, unless there is previous history with the individual.
 

Llanigraham

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I did wonder what "proved in her (or his) absence actually entails. I assume it means this was the name and address given, which may or may not be true of course. Also why the amount due seems to bear little correlation to the fare avoided, unless there is previous history with the individual.

"Proved in his/her absence" means that dispite letters from the railway company and from the Court they have ignored everything (buried their heads in the sand) and have therefore been found guilty.
The final amount has been based on the amount of the fare owing, plus Court costs, plus surcharge, plus the fine which is based on a presumed level of income since they haven't bothered to reply to the Court with the required information.
 

najaB

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Also why the amount due seems to bear little correlation to the fare avoided, unless there is previous history with the individual.
Because the fine is based on a standard scale (as a percentage of presumed income), rather than on the fare avoided. You'll notice that most of the totals are £412 plus the fare due.
 

Stigy

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I did wonder what "proved in her (or his) absence actually entails. I assume it means this was the name and address given, which may or may not be true of course. Also why the amount due seems to bear little correlation to the fare avoided, unless there is previous history with the individual.
The amount due will include the fine imposed by the court, victim surcharge (10% of the fine amount unless that’s changed recently), compensation (the fare avoided) and costs (around £100 give or take in contribution to the costs imposed by the TOC).

Guilty in absence means they either had no reply to the summons, or the defendant just couldn’t attend for whatever reason. If they didn’t reply to a summons they will assume the details are correct as nobody has informed them otherwise or given the TOC or the courts reason to question the details given.

Sometimes defendants will be found guilty in their absence and then only when the bailiffs come knocking decide that it wasn’t actually them...strange that. Sometimes defendants turn up on the day and say it want them, completely out of the blue, and unless the member of staff’s description is pretty spot on, chances are the prosecutor will have to take their word for it.

Edit: Just realised after reading @najaB’s post that the fares in these cases were probably in addition to the other figures listed. However the process remains the same.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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"Proved in his/her absence" means that dispite letters from the railway company and from the Court they have ignored everything (buried their heads in the sand) and have therefore been found guilty.
The final amount has been based on the amount of the fare owing, plus Court costs, plus surcharge, plus the fine which is based on a presumed level of income since they haven't bothered to reply to the Court with the required information.
Of course this isn't necessarily the case - it could equally well be that the person moved after giving their then-current address to the TOC, and didn't set up mail redirection or not for long enough if they did. It wouldn't occur to most people to let a TOC know they've moved if they had their details taken weeks or months ago. Many might think that if nothing came soon afterwards then that's the end of the matter.

Admittedly a low percentage of people will be in that situation (or one analogous to it) but it would be incorrect to assume that everyone found guilty in their absence has had the opportunity, but didn't bother, to reply to the summons.
 

Smeags

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Considering that my ticket was checked on the train by GWR staff in both directions for a day trip from Oxford to Worcester I find it disturbing that people making much longer trips costing three figures managed to get to their destination without any intermediate checks.

I used to travel from Stockport to London a lot, a two-hour journey, on Sunday evenings. These would regularly have no checks! Was probably checked on arrival though if I remember right.
 

Tom Quinne

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You have to wonder if rail fare cases are a efficient use of magistrate court time?

Far worse real crimes to be death with than £2.80 train fares.
 

Tom Quinne

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Even 15 minutes per case adds up to significant sums of money.

GWR operate a very good revenue protection team from actually catching people right through to building the case/proceeding mag courts, unlike some who contract out to much less efficient and professional companies.

But, should private companies be allowed to clog up valuable criminal magistrate court time however small per individual case with often very low fare values?

For example an extreme case of a single from Lawrence Hill to Stapleton Road at £1.50!
 

Stigy

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You have to wonder if rail fare cases are a efficient use of magistrate court time?

Far worse real crimes to be death with than £2.80 train fares.
£2.80 doesn’t seem a lot. It’s when that turns in to £280,000 that it puts the scale of the problem in to at least a bit of perspective.
 

Stigy

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Even 15 minutes per case adds up to significant sums of money.

GWR operate a very good revenue protection team from actually catching people right through to building the case/proceeding mag courts, unlike some who contract out to much less efficient and professional companies.

But, should private companies be allowed to clog up valuable criminal magistrate court time however small per individual case with often very low fare values?

For example an extreme case of a single from Lawrence Hill to Stapleton Road at £1.50!
The same could be said for any other agency really. Should TV licensing be allowed to do so? Should VOSA? Should minor motoring offences? What happens if a penalty notice for disorder isn’t paid? All of these require Mags courts.
 

najaB

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But, should private companies be allowed to clog up valuable criminal magistrate court time however small per individual case with often very low fare values?
The Court could always decline to issue the summons if they wanted to.
 

Tom Quinne

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£280,000 is a mass amount of money of course, but it’s a private matter which the company should pursue via debt collection firms like car park firms and the like do, not via the criminal courts.
 

Tom Quinne

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The same could be said for any other agency really. Should TV licensing be allowed to do so? Should VOSA? Should minor motoring offences? What happens if a penalty notice for disorder isn’t paid? All of these require Mags courts.

TV no, vosa and motoring yes.

Defective vehicles, and motoring offences can and do cost lives - not paying a rail fare doesn’t.
 

Stigy

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TV no, vosa and motoring yes.

Defective vehicles, and motoring offences can and do cost lives - not paying a rail fare doesn’t.
What about other railway offences?

As far as fare evasion goes, why shouldn’t these cases go to court? Is it right that people should get away with their crimes, however small? Is it right that TOCs should have to just take it on the chin? It’s the same as shoplifting. It’s not just a case of a £2.80 fare. Nobody really just evades one fare and gets caught, they usually commit the same offence frequently until their luck runs out. Looking at it like this is extremely short sighted and naive. Criminal offences should be dealt with by criminal courts.
 

Tom Quinne

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For a GWR example Avonmouth to Bristol Temple Meads, the company employed dozens of part time ticket examiners to work solely on the line in order to combat the 2 minutes between stops, and guard only pay train operation.

It was fantastic, although the majority of passengers (eastern Europeans) working at Avonmouth would always pay without fail, it was the work shy soap dodgers at Stapleton Road who would cause problems.

Shops / business should take measures to protect themselves, HD CCTV, store detectives etc, just like rail companies should man stations (like GWR on the beach branch with TEs) before clogging up the law courts with low level barely criminal matters.

These private profit making firms take zero account of actual mistakes, it’s a zero tolerance approach guilty full stop - drag you to court and criminalise you.
 

Busaholic

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You have to wonder if rail fare cases are a efficient use of magistrate court time?

Far worse real crimes to be death with than £2.80 train fares.
I don't wonder- I consider it to be a gross misuse. The fact that this is happening in Bristol, covering the Crown Prosecution Service area most in disarray with hundreds of serious criminal cases falling apart, with many not even coming to trial because of incompetence and inadequacies, only adds to that assessment. We've had similar headlines down in Cornwall, with someone fined (with 'victim surcharge') close on £1,000 for evading a fare of £2.70. Like so many, he was tried in his absence, as he never received the notice of his court appearance. How do I know? Because a few weeks later, in a short paragraph on page 24 or something, unlike the page 3 of the original article, his appeal was allowed and he ended up having to pay the £2.70! Several of the other cases featured in the original article had similar outcomes, as magistrates accepted they'd had no knowledge of court cases, many having moved address in the meantime. These were all people who'd given correct names and addresses to the railway people who'd originally questioned them. It used to be the case that proof of a summons to court having been received by the accused was necessary before petty (derived from the French petit, meaning small or little) cases could be brought to court, but 'streamlining' (i.e. costcutting and cutting corners) saw an end to that. Petty Sessions were part of the criminal justice system for decades in most of the U.K. for decades until about 1980.
 

Fawkes Cat

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You have to wonder if rail fare cases are a efficient use of magistrate court time?

Far worse real crimes to be death with than £2.80 train fares.

There's a risk of falling into the trap of asserting that the current way of dealing with non-payment of fares is the best of all possible solutions, but if you don't like the current system what alternative do you propose? Off the top of my head, I can think of
- railway pursues the debt through the civil courts
- decriminalisation and a system of penalty notices (something like what is now used for parking your car in the wrong place)
- no facility at all for the railway to pursue.

No doubt there are other options, so what would you suggest and why?
 

Tom Quinne

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There's a risk of falling into the trap of asserting that the current way of dealing with non-payment of fares is the best of all possible solutions, but if you don't like the current system what alternative do you propose? Off the top of my head, I can think of
- railway pursues the debt through the civil courts
- decriminalisation and a system of penalty notices (something like what is now used for parking your car in the wrong place)
- no facility at all for the railway to pursue.

No doubt there are other options, so what would you suggest and why?

The same way car parking firms levy debts on people, failure to pay is taken up via the Civil debt recovery industry.

I have to provide some disclosure here, I was caught without a ticket (guilty as charged), it took 7 months to take me to court (mag) in that time I had zero communication from the firm who worked up the case (non roc) aside form the good old initial “tell us your side of the story” letter which was totally ignored.

like I say I was guilty and plead so in court, I was fined a not insignificant sum of £497.

The fare avoided...£4.80, which I could of and was willing to pay on day.

I was wrong, I paid the price.

But, how much did that cost us as taxpayers? Was it value for money, could I of just been billed with an admin fee via the TOC contractor? Was it cracking a nut with a sledgehammer?

I’d propose a wholly civil method, private firms can obtain address info etc - failure to pay would then be escalated via the county and high court if required.
 

Brissle Girl

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Ah, well there’s a surprise.

And how many other fares had you successfully avoided before being caught, or would have done in the future had you not been caught?

You took a chance, got caught, expected just to pay the fare due and then walk away. Well, life doesn’t work like that, else there would be no point in anyone paying for anything if the only consequence of being caught is to pay the original amount due.

Better that you tell all your mates about your experience than bleat about it here, as part of the point of the process is a deterrent to others tempted to fare dodge too.
 

Fawkes Cat

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It’s certainly important not to underestimate the importance of the deterrence effect of a financial penalty. Since we’re in confessional mode, let me say that I am fairly obsessive about driving within the speed limits. It would be nice if I could say that I fully accept the science about what speeds are safe in urban areas/ at junctions etc. or that I feel a moral obligation to follow the law, or that having been caught speeding (which I was) I cannot live down the shame of 3 points on my licence. But what really hit home was the way my insurance went through the roof for the five years or so until I was out of the time where the insurance companies ask about points.

If recovery of unpaid rail fares was just through the civil court, would there still be a financial penalty to ‘encourage’ future compliance? And would there be any way to escalate a penalty for people who repeated their pattern of behaviour?
 

Stigy

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The same way car parking firms levy debts on people, failure to pay is taken up via the Civil debt recovery industry.

I have to provide some disclosure here, I was caught without a ticket (guilty as charged), it took 7 months to take me to court (mag) in that time I had zero communication from the firm who worked up the case (non roc) aside form the good old initial “tell us your side of the story” letter which was totally ignored.

like I say I was guilty and plead so in court, I was fined a not insignificant sum of £497.

The fare avoided...£4.80, which I could of and was willing to pay on day.

I was wrong, I paid the price.

But, how much did that cost us as taxpayers? Was it value for money, could I of just been billed with an admin fee via the TOC contractor? Was it cracking a nut with a sledgehammer?

I’d propose a wholly civil method, private firms can obtain address info etc - failure to pay would then be escalated via the county and high court if required.
So you have an axe to grind.

I’d hazard a guess that you don’t have much experience with railway prosecutions other than your own encounter with them? As I said above, this isn’t about one fare if £2 or whatever it may be. It’s about the bigger picture. How much do TOCs lose to travel fraud each year? Lots.

Most people who are taken to caught aren’t simply one time offenders who make an innocent mistake. They’re repeat offenders, or professionals who need making an example of. The sheer fact that most people fail to plead and/or don’t bother turning up at court says a lot. If it was a case of the nasty rail firms taking advantage, far more people would be pleading not guilty, or at least turning up at court!

I don’t like these comparisons, but the fact remains that fare evasion is the same as theft in its most basic form, and fraud on a more sinister scale. If these matters were civil matters, it would be next to no deterrent for most people.
 

Tom Quinne

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Further disclosure alert, I am an ex train guard so I know full well it near impossible to dodge or get away at stations with barriers.

The station I was stopped at was a fully gated station where I approached staff to buy the correct ticket.

No axe to grind, I was guilty, I paid my fine no criminal record though.

The criminal justice system is creaking as it is under the weight of real crime like drug offences, burglary, robbery and the like without private operators bringing cases for rail fares.

However, what I think and come to that anyone on here thinks is meaningless.
 

Tom Quinne

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Ah, well there’s a surprise.

And how many other fares had you successfully avoided before being caught, or would have done in the future had you not been caught?

You took a chance, got caught, expected just to pay the fare due and then walk away. Well, life doesn’t work like that, else there would be no point in anyone paying for anything if the only consequence of being caught is to pay the original amount due.

Better that you tell all your mates about your experience than bleat about it here, as part of the point of the process is a deterrent to others tempted to fare dodge too.

Did I not say I was guilty, and pleaded so?

No bleating or moaning from me.
 

Tom Quinne

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It’s certainly important not to underestimate the importance of the deterrence effect of a financial penalty. Since we’re in confessional mode, let me say that I am fairly obsessive about driving within the speed limits. It would be nice if I could say that I fully accept the science about what speeds are safe in urban areas/ at junctions etc. or that I feel a moral obligation to follow the law, or that having been caught speeding (which I was) I cannot live down the shame of 3 points on my licence. But what really hit home was the way my insurance went through the roof for the five years or so until I was out of the time where the insurance companies ask about points.

If recovery of unpaid rail fares was just through the civil court, would there still be a financial penalty to ‘encourage’ future compliance? And would there be any way to escalate a penalty for people who repeated their pattern of behaviour?

Continued offences would attract higher fines, multiple parking tickets so add up to many hundreds of pounds, especially once fees are added.

I’m sure you’ve seen the gutter trash tv programs on C5 where ANPR (don’t get me started on its civil compliance use) is used to stop people with outstanding fines, once stopped it pay up in full or lose your car.
 
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