29 new trains for Transpennine Express ?

[Snow1964]

In notes to todays Government announcemen on £3.9bn for Transpennine routes is

It will support TransPennine Express in engaging with manufacturers on options for up to 29 new trains to replace the existing diesel fleet, in addition to new trains for local stopping services operated by Northern, ensuring trains along the line are suited to the modernised tracks.

Are these definite, and if so what type

Service announcement: £3.9 billion boost for more reliable train journeys in the North

Passengers will benefit from a fully-electrified line, accessible stations and more frequent services.

www.gov.uk

 

[Grumpy Git]

Good of HM Gov't to confirm the northern East-West corridor ends at Manchester.

 

[RobShipway]

I am presuming that each of the 29 new trains is replacing 2 of the class 185 units, so I suspect that the new trains will be 5 - 6 carriage trains.

Now presuming that the TPE Suburban services are handed over to Northern, then the new trains could be either more Hitachi AT300 or CAF Civity trains similar to what has been ordered by LNER.

If the Suburban services are staying with TPE, then I would suspect something from the Alstom Aventra range which could be used for either suburban or Inter-City services in the same way as the class 185, but with being 5 - 6 carriage trains.

But the above is just assumptions and very speculative!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Also mentions new trains for northern

 

[dgl]

I doubt the AT300 would be part of any winning contract at the moment, not just because of the increase in price but because I doubt anyone want's them if they have the option, plus I don't think any operator of the IET's and their similar siblings or the Government has anything good to say about Hitachi at the moment.
I wonder what Siemens could offer as having an assembly plant in Britain now must give them a bit if help winning orders (even though their superior quality should be enough).

 

[sprinterguy]

Are these definite, and if so what type

That would be decided by the usual tendering process.

This looks like a derivation of the additional EMU order, dependent on the Transpennine Route Upgrade taking place, that was included as an option in First Group's 2016 franchise agreement, since superceded. This would have been for an additional 7 units in 5, 6 or 8-car length, with a further option for "up to" a further fifteen units of the same length. At the time, these would have been further class 397s from CAF, though this option agreement lapsed at the end of March 2018 so presumably it's all up for grabs to any prospective manufacturer (and presumably won't be pure EMUs).

 

[YorkRailFan]

Currently, the 802s would make the most sense, but with Manchester-York being electrified, CAF Civities could work for those services and then perhaps using batteries to Scarborough or Hull. Depends if they have the range to reach Saltburn from Northallerton.

 

[D365]

with respect to the gov.uk press release…

“Support, support, options”

Excuse my cynicism.

 

[Stephen42]

The notice for the procurement is very light on details, "The base order is for 29 units with an option for up to an additional 26 units." combined with the Gov press releases suggests it's a subset of Class 185s with the option to replace the remainder.

Overall it all looks a bit rushed, one of the links to respond is for a completely different notice that's already closed and the estimated value at £2.6bn might be a miscalculation depending on what they are asking for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are 51 185s. Assuming the replacement are 5x26m or 6x24m then 29 are in excess of a full replacement.

 

[Bevan Price]

There is no hurry to place orders. Manchester to Leeds & York electrification is unlikely to be complete before the early to mid 2030s....

 

[Killingworth]

There is no hurry to place orders. Manchester to Leeds & York electrification is unlikely to be complete before the early to mid 2030s....

Greater Anglia are running a fleet of bi-mode units that rarely see wires let alone run on them.

By the time these TPE units are operational there should be significantly more electrified track for them to use and, hopefully, more under construction.

 

[43096]

Greater Anglia are running a fleet of bi-mode units that rarely see wires let alone run on them.

Rarely see wires? Their home depot is wired, even before we mention Norwich, Ipswich, Ely to Stansted etc etc.

 

[CapabilityB]

Tender docs have been released: https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/tenders/view/17890

Core spec of 29 trains with option for additional 26 which I guess covers delivery of TRU and then replacement of 185s

 

[JonathanH]

Core spec of 29 trains with option for additional 26 which I guess covers delivery of TRU and then replacement of 185s

Aren't both of those replacement of 185s?

 

[CapabilityB]

Aren't both of those replacement of 185s?

Given TRU delivers additional services they'll require more trains just to deliver the benefits of that programme. And the timing of the announcements of this funding and the procurement notice suggest the core spec is related to delivering TRU.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Also mentions new trains for northern

There is another thread on which that matter can be discussed

 

[Nym]

Or it's all just noise to make it look like our lovely government is trying to actually do something with TPE rather than just sit on it's failings?

 

[CapabilityB]

Or it's all just noise to make it look like our lovely government is trying to actually do something with TPE rather than just sit on it's fialings?

These new trains are probably at least 6 years away, so nothing to do with the current TPE situation.

That's a formal tender which would have taken a significant amount of effort and financial commitment to issue.

It's also needed to deliver TRU.

I think it's a sign of the great effort the industry is putting in to delivery things like TRU that this has got approval to go to market.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Or it's all just noise to make it look like our lovely government is trying to actually do something with TPE rather than just sit on it's fialings?

I cannot ever recall the word "fialings" before. It sounds something that Gaelic speakers may recognise.

 

[Purple Orange]

What type of train do people think the order will become? A double 6-car 185 seats 338 passengers and a 5-car 802 seats 342 passengers. A 5-car 397 seats 288 passengers, so if a variant from CAF came along, it would need to be at least a 6-car train to match capacity.

What about door positioning? Are doors at thirds preferable given the nature of passenger flows on the core?

 

[Sorcerer]

As valid as the reasons may be, it seems like a bit of a shambles that there's talk of 29 additional trains to replace the existing fleet before they've even got around to withdrawing the barely 5-year-old Nova 3 stock. Even if the 68+MK5 stock isn't suitable for their current needs it's still a disgrace that they would be ordered and withdrawn within such a short time period.

 

[Mzzzs]

I think more nova 1 and 29 bi mode 4 car trains would have been better than nova 3 and 2.

 

[deltic08]

Currently, the 802s would make the most sense, but with Manchester-York being electrified, CAF Civities could work for those services and then perhaps using batteries to Scarborough or Hull. Depends if they have the range to reach Saltburn from Northallerton.

I think on such a busy route, all station stoppers should be lower geared for more rapid acceleration. Most of the route is 75mph east of Huddersfield and 65mph west of Standedge.

 

[Snow1964]

I guess manufacturers aren't going to be to enthusiastic about a new design for just 29 trains (the development cost and time wouldn't make it competitive), so going to be a variant of what exists already.

Suggests shortlist is
Hitachi, with similar to class 803 or 807
CAF with a 397 or LNER new train variant
Siemens with a Desiro Verve
Alstom with either a variant of 720, or Irish Coradia

Then perhaps a couple of curved ball offers, eg Skoda Transportation, Hyundai-Rotem, Chinese CRRC

Had the Government also decided to finish the Bristol electrification and added new express EMUs for that too, could easily have been minimum of 400 carriages which would really have livened things up.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I think on such a busy route, all station stoppers should be lower geared for more rapid acceleration. Most of the route is 75mph east of Huddersfield and 65mph west of Standedge.

Not all TPE services will be stoppers.

I guess manufacturers aren't going to be to enthusiastic about a new design for just 29 trains (the development cost and time wouldn't make it competitive), so going to be a variant of what exists already.

Suggests shortlist is
Hitachi, with similar to class 803 or 807
CAF with a 397 or LNER new train variant
Siemens with a Desiro Verve
Alstom with either a variant of 720, or Irish Coradia

Then perhaps a couple of curved ball offers, eg Skoda Transportation, Hyundai-Rotem, Chinese CRRC

Had the Government also decided to finish the Bristol electrification and added new express EMUs for that too, could easily have been minimum of 400 carriages which would really have livened things up.

I feel that Siemens would be the least likely unless the trains could be built at Goole.

 

[Snow1964]

I think on such a busy route, all station stoppers should be lower geared for more rapid acceleration. Most of the route is 75mph east of Huddersfield and 65mph west of Standedge.

Also depends on how many motors (and how powerful) are put on the train.

These days modern ac motors and power electronics could give rapid acceleration if geared for 75mph or 125mph.

However on damp Pennine tracks with steep gradients, low gearing and lightweight could easily lead to wheel spin. Installing enough power wont be a problem, getting it down onto the rails for quick pullaways in poor weather could be.

 

[Purple Orange]

Could CAF do a 6-car variant of a 397 with doors at thirds, with bi-mode (or tri-mode) capability?

 

[Grumpy]

I think it's a sign of the great effort the industry is putting in to delivery things like TRU

I think that several on here might quibble with "great".
So we've got Northern tendering for 450 units separately from this relatively small TPE requirement.
Running on the same tracks in the same area. Shouldn't somebody be banging their heads together?

 

[HSTEd]

I think on such a busy route, all station stoppers should be lower geared for more rapid acceleration. Most of the route is 75mph east of Huddersfield and 65mph west of Standedge.

Modern motors and final drives have made gearing far less important.

Indeed, a Shinkansen trainset will leave most British trains in the dust despite its ~170-220mph top speed.