2A55 2150 SO Newcastle-Middlesbrough

[Anvil1984]

Darlo

A lot of points raised were not about the service mentionned but why Newcastle and Middlesborough guards would not work a closing time special on any lines due to issues on other lines in the areas and lack of back up

 

[Asian Demon]

I fundamentally disagree with, and am disgusted by, many of the points made by the majority of posters on this thread.

For reasons i shall not go into i am not saying anymore other than the following points:

I have used this train many, many times and not ONCE been involved in damaging , destroying, or in any way interfering with the train or any of the passenger or staff.

For the VAST majority of the people on that train their only crime, and for many of you it seems to be a crime, is to have gone for a night out, taken some drink and expected thew Railway to get them home.

That's a fair point to make. The problem being that a vocal minority of passengers choose to go beyond just having a night out and choose to willfully cause trouble from vandalising trains to assaulting other passengers/members of staff both physically and verbally. Safety is paramount and money will not change that. Sadly it's the law abiding majority who suffer.

I for one will say that as a guard who deals with passengers on the ale trail on a weekly basis, I have seen the behaviour described above on a much grander scale. It's not nice for staff and definitely not nice for passengers, the most of whom just want to go home peacefully after a nice night out.

When certain members of society start to take responsibility for themselves and actually act like decent human beings, then there could be a justification for later night services. Until that time comes (if ever), then I suspect that certain areas of the network have nothing to look forward to but more of the same.

 

[bb21]

The issue here I think is that, like in many other situations, the behaviours of a minority spoils it for the others.

 

[MCW]

The issue here I think is that, like in many other situations, the behaviours of a minority spoils it for the others.

Of which Myself and other members have elaborated and civally discussed this.

'nuff said.

 

[DarloRich]

The issue here I think is that, like in many other situations, the behaviours of a minority spoils it for the others.

so we must cater for that minority rather than the majority? Should we not try and sort out the minority?
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Of which Myself and other members have elaborated and civally discussed this.

'nuff said.

I disagree.

 

[Asian Demon]

so we must cater for that minority rather than the majority? Should we not try and sort out the minority?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I disagree.

When the TOC's can be bothered to pull their thumbs out of their arses, pay more towards having more BTP available to deal with the idiotic minority and be willing to accept the costs of doing so, then we can cater for everyone. Until that time comes I don't see why the safety of the majority should be put at risk. I for one do not want my teeth knocked down my throat by some mindless yob just so everyone else can get home. I don't care how selfish it sounds. No amount of money can change that. Unless we were allowed to deal with unruly passengers by appropriate means (throwing them off trains physically) and knowing I don't owe them a duty of care if anything happens to them, then it seems that those in the minority do indeed end up ruining it for the majority and there is very little that can be done about it.

 

[Anvil1984]

We need to root out the minority but would Northern pick up the tab for the additional resources to do so. BTP, station staff to man the barriers and a lot of passengers just walk through without a ticket when barriers are open as much as i like to make a killing when covering that boro.

Once again I do not think the last train is at an appropriate time. It is way too early but Northern seem to be having issues on services out of Newcastle on a night and their units dont have CCTv or modern passcomms its probably best to give it to another TOC

 

[DarloRich]

When the TOC's can be bothered to pull their thumbs out of their arses, pay more towards having more BTP available to deal with the idiotic minority and be willing to accept the costs of doing so, then we can cater for everyone. Until that time comes I don't see why the safety of the majority should be put at risk. I for one do not want my teeth knocked down my throat by some mindless yob just so everyone else can get home. I don't care how selfish it sounds. No amount of money can change that. Unless we were allowed to deal with unruly passengers by appropriate means (throwing them off trains physically) and knowing I don't owe them a duty of care if anything happens to them, then it seems that those in the minority do indeed end up ruining it for the majority and there is very little that can be done about it.

There is plenty that can be done about it however the availability of the police is the key.

Whilst it is obviously wrong that staff should be endangered it is also wrong that the last train south from a major city on a weekend is 2130 ish. I can get the train out of Euston back to MK all night!

I disagree with the description presented by many of the posters as i have never seen the trains destroyed, people assaulted or staff attacked whenever i have used this train. I wonder how many posters have actually used this train. Even the OP admits the behavior wasn't, really, that bad!

I have seen many practical steps taken by the BTP and Northern to avoid problems. The best was to have one door open only at Newcaslte for boarding, with two guards and two BTP officers standing by the door.

Anyone looking too drunk or rowdy was refused entrance, anyone without a ticket either bought one or got arrested. The BTP officers went as far as Darlo and arrested two people on the train for being idiots.

 

[MCW]

so we must cater for that minority rather than the majority? Should we not try and sort out the minority?
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I disagree.

On what grounds?

 

[DarloRich]

We need to root out the minority but would Northern pick up the tab for the additional resources to do so. BTP, station staff to man the barriers and a lot of passengers just walk through without a ticket when barriers are open as much as i like to make a killing when covering that boro.

Once again I do not think the last train is at an appropriate time. It is way too early but Northern seem to be having issues on services out of Newcastle on a night and their units dont have CCTv or modern passcomms its probably best to give it to another TOC

I agree - although Northern do seem to be the TOC of last resort! I have to admit the old TPE train to Manchester Airport at 0200 was to late. I think a train at about 2330 would be the best solution.

I know i have gone for a night out in Newcastle extra early knowing you would have to leave at 21:30. It simple leads to a situation where you drink more, earlier, knowing you have to leave. Sorry if that puts me beyond the pale.

 

[transmanche]

I wonder if the TOCs have thought of approaching NE1 for some funding towards security on late-night services from Newcastle? (NE1 are behind the 'Get Into Newcastle' and the 'Alive after Five' campaigns.)

Funding security on late-night services would help promote Newcastle as an evening destination - with safe travel home available at a reasonable price.
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II know i have gone for a night out in Newcastle extra early knowing you would have to leave at 21:30. It simple leads to a situation where you drink more, earlier, knowing you have to leave. Sorry if that puts me beyond the pale.

I think that's part of the problem. People drink too much, too quickly in order to catch the last train home. A later train would allow them to pace themselves better.

 

[CC 72100]

I have seen many practical steps taken by the BTP and Northern to avoid problems. The best was to have one door open only at Newcaslte for boarding, with two guards and two BTP officers standing by the door.

Anyone looking too drunk or rowdy was refused entrance, anyone without a ticket either bought one or got arrested. The BTP officers went as far as Darlo and arrested two people on the train for being idiots.

That sounds like a workable solution. However, I get the impression that the BTP are not as numerous as rail staff would like them to be, and whilst it worked well on that occasion, perhaps it could not be relied upon that those staff (2 TMs + 2 BTPs) are available to do this on a regular enough basis?

 

[Anvil1984]

At present the BTP are having to assist and travel on the 1924 and 2118 services to Carlisle due to almost weekly disturbances on there which is stretching them. Another step wiuld b3 having station staff manning the barriers and you can sift out passengers there BUT that requires paying another TOC money (The barriers at Newcastle were wide open at half 7 tonight)

 

[DarloRich]

That sounds like a workable solution. However, I get the impression that the BTP are not as numerous as rail staff would like them to be, and whilst it worked well on that occasion, perhaps it could not be relied upon that those staff (2 TMs + 2 BTPs) are available to do this on a regular enough basis?

it has happened almost every time i have used the train on a Saturday night. I might just have been lucky. Clearly the BTP can only help if they aren't dealing with someone else on the station or on another train. Clearly there are a finite number of policeman

Funding for this is the key. In my opinion it needs to be the policeman not a TOC sponsored security guard.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At present the BTP are having to assist and travel on the 1924 and 2118 services to Carlisle due to almost weekly disturbances on there which is stretching them. Another step wiuld b3 having station staff manning the barriers and you can sift out passengers there BUT that requires paying another TOC money (The barriers at Newcastle were wide open at half 7 tonight)

they have obviously shifted the BTP about since the last time i was up as the Carlisles were the peaceful ones!

Barrier staff would help, at least at Newcastle, but BTP are the key

 

[Anvil1984]

Darlo, just google the press reports the Carlisles have now BTP travelling on those two services, Security from Leeds and Manchester travel up to patrol them. Nightmare and a half on a Saturday im afraid

 

[Frothy]

it has happened almost every time i have used the train on a Saturday night. I might just have been lucky. Clearly the BTP can only help if they aren't dealing with someone else on the station or on another train. Clearly there are a finite number of policeman

Funding for this is the key. In my opinion it needs to be the policeman not a TOC sponsored security guard.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


they have obviously shifted the BTP about since the last time i was up as the Carlisles were the peaceful ones!

Barrier staff would help, at least at Newcastle, but BTP are the key

On this occasion, there were 4 BTP officers at Newcastle, but none of them got on the train. There was just 1 guard.
I agree that the most workable solution would be for a local transport/tourism body like NE1 to pay for the extra BTP staffing on-train so that a TOC could run the extra service happily.
However, with limited funding available, the relevant body might not think that this was worth the dosh.

 

[DarloRich]

Darlo, just google the press reports the Carlisles have now BTP travelling on those two services, Security from Leeds and Manchester travel up to patrol them. Nightmare and a half on a Saturday im afraid

I have just had a look - crazy! :roll:

 

[cuccir]

I wonder if the TOCs have thought of approaching NE1 for some funding towards security on late-night services from Newcastle? (NE1 are behind the 'Get Into Newcastle' and the 'Alive after Five' campaigns.)

I happen to know that the local car parks authority are members of NE1's executive board, so the cynic in me thinks you might not get far with that...

 

[SGS]

Can we even be sure that passenger behaviour is the reason behind there being no late trains? There are later trains on a weekday from Newcastle - do Friday nights not have similar issues?

Maybe NR just want the lines clear early on a Saturday, to fit in any engineering work?

 

[DarloRich]

Can we even be sure that passenger behaviour is the reason behind there being no late trains? There are later trains on a weekday from Newcastle - do Friday nights not have similar issues?

Maybe NR just want the lines clear early on a Saturday, to fit in any engineering work?

People cant really go out on the lash on a Wednesday night and get up for work the next day can they

 

[cuccir]

Can we even be sure that passenger behaviour is the reason behind there being no late trains? There are later trains on a weekday from Newcastle - do Friday nights not have similar issues?

Although not all that late really. It's 22:45 for the last train departing in any direction - that means you can't really go to a film that starts later than 20:00, you're in a rush with concerts that end typically at 22:00-22:30, and you can't go to anything that's outside of the city center.

Are there any other cities of comparable size that have earlier 'last' trains to their hinterland? A quick search finds trains leaving Liverpool, Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds, Bristol, Portsmouth, Edinburgh etc all after 23:00. Even the last train out of Middlesbrough is later than the last train out of Newcastle!

In fact, the only place of a comparable size that I can find with a worse late night train service out of it is Sunderland. Admittedly there is the metro between these two, but these still end relatively early, and the point still stands that Newcastle's last departing train is earlier than all other comparable cities.

 

[Frothy]

I got a reply from Northern!

Dear Frothy,

Thank you for your e-mail, which I received recently.

I can understand your concerns about passengers drinking alcohol on our trains, but we do allow this as long as passengers are behaving appropriately. If a passenger becomes a nuisance due to the alcohol they have consumed, we can request that they leave our services and stations or seek help from the British Transport Police. It is worth bearing in mind that most passengers, who decide to drink during their journey, do so without any problems at all.

I am also sorry that you feel the times of our trains are unsuitable for you. The Department for Transport (DfT) sets the minimum number of trains we must run on each line. We then set our timetables to match this standard and exceed it whenever possible.

At present there are no plans to increase the number of services. However, I have passed your comments on to the manager in charge of our timetables and asked that your suggestions be looked into when any changes are planned.

Thank you again for taking the trouble to contact me.

Although by now I've forgotten what I asked in the first place.