3+2 Seating on ScotRail Replacement Buses!

[Baxenden Bank]

Does a RRB come under coaching rules whereby seat belts have to be worn by passengers? Albeit that the driver is not expected to enforce the rules.

How would an adult passenger (or even a 15/16 year old schoolchild) fasten those seatbelts pictured? It comes through the back of your head!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Banning 3+2 seating on RRBs is just going to make it more expensive to run RRB services.

So? You are inconveniencing the passengers enough, make sure they have some semblance of comfort.

I believe they should be illegal for carrying adults in any case - the seat belt cannot be worn safely by an even average sized adult.

They are of course fine for school use provided the teachers can occupy the back row or a few rows of 2+2 are added.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Robertj21a]

The 3+2 'buses' I've been on in the Highlands are actually coaches - operated by Stagecoach!

They need to keep the capacity high (school contracts) while also retaining vehicles capable of being used as much as possible. When not on school runs it's very likely that the number of passengers on board will have a complete row of seats to themselves !

 

[route:oxford]

Banning 3+2 seating on RRBs is just going to make it more expensive to run RRB services. It's no surprise that the main RRB fleet is the set of buses which aren't needed for most of the week and aren't used for revenue services. If you want to stop councils contracting 70 seaters then you'll need to spend more on tax for no obvious benefit to the schoolchildren who use these every day. RRBs are terrible but at the very least they are capable of safely carrying people from A to B, which is fundamentally what a transport network is meant to be about.

They don't exactly look ideal for many schoolchildren either. Perhaps up to 10 years old - but nothing older than that.

The Tube from Oxford has 87 seats in every coach with wheelchair provision, power sockets, low floor access, bicycle and luggage storage, washroom and WiFi.

Everything a rail carriage has.

It's what all RRBs should look like and should be what is used for school bus runs too.

 

[Mikey C]

Dunblane/Stirling to Falkirk High

Service was delayed further at Larbert.

An exasperated passenger, who had missed 2 earlier services due to full coaches, lay down on the road in front of the bus and refused to move...

Those seat belts would be impossible to wear for an adult. For someone tall, their shoulder would get in the way, for someone short it might go across their neck

 

[JonathanH]

They don't exactly look ideal for many schoolchildren either. Perhaps up to 10 years old - but nothing older than that.

The Tube from Oxford has 87 seats in every coach with wheelchair provision, power sockets, low floor access, bicycle and luggage storage, washroom and WiFi.

Everything a rail carriage has.

It's what all RRBs should look like and should be what is used for school bus runs too.

Quite often low bridges are a factor in what vehicles can be used for rail replacement. Also, some routes require a small bus. Both were features in the choice of vehicles shown below. I was in Glasgow a few weeks ago and had a wide variety of vehicles for different trips (not my pictures):

Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh - YN16NZJ - a brand new 2016 coach
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidsbusphotos/29411949260

West Calder to Glasgow Central - FHZ4191 - a third-hand 1992(?) coach
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidsbusphotos/28162240126

Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland - D5HCT - a minicoach registered in 2003 (the white one in this picture)
http://hct.scot/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/DSC_0040.jpg

Anniesland to Milngavie - RIL3690 - a secondhand former Stagecoach coach registered in 1998
https://www.flickr.com/photos/33321856@N05/22977444954

Westerton to Dalmuir - XIB2453 - a coach dating from 1987 that had seen better days
https://www.flickr.com/photos/busmanscotland/15416570078

The surprise is that sometimes a low floor bus would be more appropriate for these journeys than coaches not in their first flush of youth. It would be interesting to know how much cheaper it is to hire an older bus than a more modern one and whether those decisions are actually made based on how busy they expect the services to be.

 

[rebmcr]

They don't exactly look ideal for many schoolchildren either. Perhaps up to 10 years old - but nothing older than that.

The Tube from Oxford has 87 seats in every coach with wheelchair provision, power sockets, low floor access, bicycle and luggage storage, washroom and WiFi.

Everything a rail carriage has.

It's what all RRBs should look like and should be what is used for school bus runs too.

Sounds expensive, especially to just have sitting around waiting for a train to break.

 

[Blindtraveler]

To add to Neils point earlier, I think 16 is maybe a tad old for the regulations, my mates son is 13 and 5ft7 and his sister is not much shorter. Another mates 12 year old girl is 11.5 stone of muscle and wearing a size 14/16!

with the passenger who was already late due to ful coaches in mind I hope he moans and claims for all hes worth, the coaches should have more than enough space but this sounds like cost cutting.

 

[J-2739]

I don't think it should be judged on the age, but size.

At my school, you can get 13 year old lads bigger than six formers.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I don't think it should be judged on the age, but size.

At my school, you can get 13 year old lads bigger than six formers.

exactly, see my last post for why lol

 

[philthetube]

If you board a bus and the driver is aware you are unable to fasten the seat belt he should not carry you, it is different from being unaware.

The toc then has to provide alternative transport.

Good luck with that in practice.

 

[route:oxford]

The surprise is that sometimes a low floor bus would be more appropriate for these journeys than coaches not in their first flush of youth. It would be interesting to know how much cheaper it is to hire an older bus than a more modern one and whether those decisions are actually made based on how busy they expect the services to be.

Apologies... Predictive text switched my planned content.

It should have read:-

"They don't exactly look ideal for many schoolchildren either. Perhaps up to 10 years old - but nobody older than that."

 

[iantherev]

This has happened quite a few times in Surrey and Sussex as well. Buses Excetera have used SN56 AXX on Rail Replacement. Countryliner and Sunray Travel (before they both went bust) have used X432 KON / X433 KON / X439 KON / R100 PAR / R200 PAR on Rail Replacement.

Personally i think that all Rail Replacement buses should be low floor DDA compliant buses with normal 2+2 seating. Coaches and School Bus style buses should not be used on Rail Replacement.

No coaches would be fun on longer distance RR services e.g. Birmingham - Gloucester. 50 mph max on the M5 in an Enviro 200 anyone?

 

[jopsuk]

"No coaches" would be madness given how far some RRB run

 

[Bletchleyite]

They just need not to use *those* coaches.

A suitable financial penalty for using them would concentrate minds (lower than a cancellation, of course).

 

[QueensCurve]

Just had a text from my parents to tell me that they are on a rail-replacement bus from Stirling and it's got 3+2 seating...

That doesn't sound overly comfortable.

Would that be Wirst Group by any chance. I have never seen such a bus but it would mae "buses replace trains" even more horrific.

 

[Groningen]

With a 2 + 3 seating in the bus; one has to go sideways through the bus. There is even no exit at the back of the bus? How narrow is the area between the left and right row? What kind of model is it. Never seen such a bus on mainland Europe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With a 2 + 3 seating in the bus; one has to go sideways through the bus. There is even no exit at the back of the bus? How narrow is the area between the left and right row? What kind of model is it. Never seen such a bus on mainland Europe.

In the UK there normally is not a rear nearside exit, particularly on coaches where it generally isn't needed because boarding need not take place quickly. Instead you have an exit on the offside in case of the vehicle rolling over (instead of, or sometimes in addition to, the roof hatches common in Europe). That off-side door is also useful when the coach operates in a right-hand drive country.

 

[Groningen]

That are busses that are not normally used in public transport? As far as i know has every bus an exit at the end of the bus. So in England first all busleavers must exit the bus before boarding can begin for people that want to enter the bus. I think that offloading and loading takes more than in the rest of Europe. Most important question is: how wide is the seat in a 2 + 3 arrangement?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That are busses that are not normally used in public transport?

Not normally, but they can be. But in the UK the ones that are have the same layout, mostly.

So in England first all busleavers must exit the bus before boarding can begin for people that want to enter the bus.

Yes. I think this is silly for city buses, and indeed London uses the European arrangement of two (or three) sets of doors. I don't see that it's an issue for long-distance coaches, as these tend to stop for far longer anyway.

Most important question is: how wide is the seat in a 2 + 3 arrangement?

I don't know the actual width, but certainly "too narrow for an adult". 2+2 coach seats are too narrow for many larger adults, particularly broad-shouldered males.

 

[J-2739]

That are busses that are not normally used in public transport? As far as i know has every bus an exit at the end of the bus. So in England first all busleavers must exit the bus before boarding can begin for people that want to enter the bus. I think that offloading and loading takes more than in the rest of Europe. Most important question is: how wide is the seat in a 2 + 3 arrangement?

Our continental cousins prefer a dual door layout and less seats to deal with the high density nature of feeders to rail stations.

Given that your average bus is 2.5-55m, I'd say the seats are comparable to a pin on a different scale.

 

[Robertj21a]

It all boils down to - what vehicles are actually available in the area ? - will there be significant luggage ? - over what distance ? - is it planned well in advance, or a rush job ? - how much is the TOC/whoever prepared to pay ?.

Needless to say, the whole thing often comes down to the final point.....

 

[DasLunatic]

Let's assume the bus is 2.5m wide, and the aisle is 0.5m wide. This leaves 2m for the five seats, which works out at each seat being 40cm wide - 15.75 inches.

The seat on a Ryanair 737 isup to 17 inches (43cms).

Given how Ryanair is known for fairly uncomfortable seating, lopping another inch and a bit off won't do much for comfort!

 

[Robertj21a]

Let's assume the bus is 2.5m wide, and the aisle is 0.5m wide. This leaves 2m for the five seats, which works out at each seat being 40cm wide - 15.75 inches.

The seat on a Ryanair 737 isup to 17 inches (43cms).

Given how Ryanair is known for fairly uncomfortable seating, lopping another inch and a bit off won't do much for comfort!

The difference being that Ryanair plan to fill every one of those seats wherever possible. These 70-seater coaches are primarily intended for schoolchildren. It's only when they are used by adults - and the vehicle is quite full - that the problems arise. If the TOCs want to spend some more money, and sufficient buses/coaches are available, then the problem goes away.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The difference being that Ryanair plan to fill every one of those seats wherever possible. These 70-seater coaches are primarily intended for schoolchildren. It's only when they are used by adults - and the vehicle is quite full - that the problems arise. If the TOCs want to spend some more money, and sufficient buses/coaches are available, then the problem goes away.

Well not really. If only one adult uses the bus pictured, they are going to have to sit across two narrow seats, with a contoured seat pad and back rest digging in to them for whatever length of journey. As I say, Inverness to Thurso anyone, sat legs akimbo due to lack of legroom and with a hard seat edge in your back / buttock all the way, with a seatbelt strap in your ear and neck and with the seat belt fixings also digging into you? No thanks!

 

[pemma]

Because it is not physically possible for an average (let alone large) adult male to occupy only one seat on these coaches, and therefore to use their seat belt in a proper, safe manner, it is my strong view that carrying passengers over the age of 16 in these seats should be an offence.

I was around 15/16 when the operator of my school bus started experimenting with these type of seats on a couple of their older coaches. They tried one in a high density 2+2 formation and one in a 3+2 formation with the former increasing the capacity by around 4 seats and the later by around 20 seats. Neither really suited the 14-16 year olds, nevermind the Sixth Formers and with them having proper seat belts rather than lap belts it actually reduced the number of pupils who wore them. Fortunately, I never had to travel on one where the number of people in board exceeded around 50 but these days it seems a lot of operators prefer to use a 3+2 seated refurbished coach on a school contract over a double decker.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The difference being that Ryanair plan to fill every one of those seats wherever possible. These 70-seater coaches are primarily intended for schoolchildren. It's only when they are used by adults - and the vehicle is quite full - that the problems arise. If the TOCs want to spend some more money, and sufficient buses/coaches are available, then the problem goes away.

Big difference between Ryanair and school buses is you have a big thick arm rest between all the seats on a plane so the gap between your shoulder and the shoulder of your fellow passenger is around 6 inches more on a Ryanair plane.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I was around 15/16 when the operator of my school bus started experimenting with these type of seats on a couple of their older coaches. They tried one in a high density 2+2 formation and one in a 3+2 formation with the former increasing the capacity by around 4 seats and the later by around 20 seats. Neither really suited the 14-16 year olds, nevermind the Sixth Formers and with them having proper seat belts rather than lap belts it actually reduced the number of pupils who wore them. Fortunately, I never had to travel on one where the number of people in board exceeded around 50 but these days it seems a lot of operators prefer to use a 3+2 seated refurbished coach on a school contract over a double decker.

My local operator at the time (Rossendale Transport) did the opposite. 2+1 seating in the front half of the bus with many more permitted standees. Which is the sort of approach used for London Underground / Overground stock - lots of standing room around the doorways as journeys are quite short so less seating required.

 

[pemma]

What kind of model is it. Never seen such a bus on mainland Europe.

Typically it's a coach which has been refurbished to have 3+2 seating or a new build vehicle which is the same width as a coach. Surprisingly some of the custom built school buses for the UK, including the Bluebird ones, have small luggage compartments under the buses so they can be used for residential trips.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My local operator at the time (Rossendale Transport) did the opposite. 2+1 seating in the front half of the bus with many more permitted standees. Which is the sort of approach used for London Underground / Overground stock - lots of standing room around the doorways as journeys are quite short so less seating required.

For my school route the journey was 30-40 minutes, depending on traffic, which meant the operator was required to provide at least one seat for every bus pass which had been issued. The ones which were shorter journeys and had non-pass holders (due to not being more than 3 miles from the school) were generally operated by standard buses (permitting standing) which the operator had acquired second hand from the likes of Crossville, North Western and GM Buses and generally had passenger notices which referred to their previous operators despite getting an external repaint when they transferred.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I have never seen such a bus but it would mae "buses replace trains" even more horrific.

Translink in Northern Ireland have 3+2 seating on the Wright Solars they run on the airport 300 service in Belfast.

http://www.ith.org.uk/S0551int-002.jpg

That's...snug.

 

[route101]

Only time ive been on a bus with 3 plus 2 was a ulsterbus coach from Belfast to Stena port .