319s with Northern

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Grannyjoans

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I don't think any Wigan - Liverpool journeys have become 331-operated for the sake of it, they've only done so if they've been part of a diagram which includes Blackpools.

I certainly hope at least some of the stoppers stay with the 331's as that work makes great use of the fast acceleration. Much more so than the Lime St - Blackpools, which spend a lot of the time cruising at 60mph and 70mph.
The 319's are dreadful on the stoppers and can't keep to time due to their appalling acceleration.
 
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js1000

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I thought everyone was adamant that 331s wouldn't be doing Chat Moss stoppers. Here's what AMD, for one, said on 5 August.
I simply cannot see how 331s not will be operating on the Chat Moss line between Crewe and Liverpool given this route has connections to Manchester Airport and Liverpool Airport (via Parkway) and its a route that stands most to gain from switch to 331s from 319s due to far superior acceleration given the amount of stops on this service (29 stops). The journey is 2 hours 15 minutes but even 15 seconds on every stop will yield some substantial savings/padding. The 331s are better suited for airport routes as the 319/323s (apart from the 323s with racks) have no space for luggage. It is a common problem I see everyday whereas the 195s to/from the Airport are great as they have space near the door/flip-down seats for luggage storage.
 
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Bovverboy

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I simply cannot see how 331s not will be operating on the Chat Moss line between Crewe and Liverpool given this route has connections to Manchester Airport and Liverpool Airport (via Parkway) and its a route that stands most to gain from switch to 331s from 319s due to far superior acceleration given the amount of stops on this service (29 stops). The journey is 2 hours 15 minutes but even 15 seconds on every stop will yield some substantial savings/padding. The 331s are better suited for airport routes as the 319/323s (apart from the 323s with racks) have no space for luggage. It is a common problem I see everyday whereas the 195s to/from the Airport are great as they have space near the door/flip-down seats for luggage storage.
I'm afraid that I don't subscribe to the logic that 331s will be used on the Chat Moss circuit simply because they would be a suitable unit to use. You could have said that about the 195s, i.e. that they would go on to routes where their good acceleration was valuable (e.g. CLC stoppers), but no, they've gone on to routes which are seen as more 'high-profile', although I'm not sure how much longer the Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport semi-fast service is going to remain high-profile if Northern continues to make a mess of it day after day.
Up to a few days ago I'm sure I hadn't heard anything about 4-car 331s being used (in the short term) on West side services. Prior to that all reports seemed to say that they were going to remain in Yorkshire until platforms had been extended to take six-car formations, and that was something which was in the land of the never-never. All of a sudden we hear that both 3-car and 4-car 331s are going to appear on Chat Moss services, and in the very near future, to boot. This came from a forummer who is privy to inside information, so we would presume there is some substance to it. However, one thing we can be sure of is, if there are only 12 331/1s, and some, at least, are going to remain in Yorkshire for now, then there aren't going to be enough left over to completely run the Chat Moss service. So, if the Chat Moss service were to go over to complete 331 operation, some units would be 331/0 (with 204 seats), replacing 323s (with 284 seats), or, more likely, 319s (with even more seats). So, while a 331/0 might have dedicated space for luggage, you'll need to find somewhere to put the 80 or more displaced passengers.
You've mentioned a few times that you're a regular traveller on the Airport line, but, I gather, wholly or mainly on the section East/South of Piccadilly. That's a very sheltered environment, 195s are never going to be full to bursting on that section, unless something goes seriously wrong. You should try standing on a 195 from Piccadilly/Oxford Road to Wigan, or Preston, which I've done myself on a couple of occasions, you'd find the 195s are quite uncomfortable to stand on, not least because there's a lack of things to hold on to.

EDIT: P.S. The Chat Moss stoppers don't go anywhere near Liverpool South Parkway.
 
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Grannyjoans

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I have heard rumours from other northern colleges that 331's are going on Liverpool-Crewe.
It is going to happen quite soon as well.
I believe this info to be reliable because a few months ago the same person also told me they were going on Liverpool-Blackpool's first, and it happened.
you could have said that about the 195s, i.e. that they would go on to routes where their good acceleration was valuable (e.g. CLC stoppers), but no, they've gone on to routes which are seen as more 'high-profile'
Also the 195's aren't particularly fast at accelerating. The 331's are in a different league. Especially the 331/0.
 

Bovverboy

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I have heard rumours from other northern colleges that 331's are going on Liverpool-Crewe.
It is going to happen quite soon as well.
I believe this info to be reliable because a few months ago the same person also told me they were going on Liverpool-Blackpool's first, and it happened.
I don't contest the notion that 331s are going onto Crewe stoppers, although I suspect there's been a recent change of mind, only a week or two ago people were as adamant the 331s weren't going to go on to the stoppers as they are now adamant that they are. My point was that suitability of a traction type to a particular route hasn't seemed to count for much up to now.

Also the 195's aren't particularly fast at accelerating. The 331's are in a different league. Especially the 331/0.
195s might not be in the same league as the 331s (I haven't yet tried the latter, myself), but they surely beat most other DMU types?
 

Puffing Devil

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What is the point of the 331s going on the Crewe Stopper? The 323 is ideal for that service, with unpleasant 3+2 seating for rush-hours, which allows a little spread in the off-peak. From the photos I've seen of the 331 it's table seats in a 2+2 which means reduced seating capacity wasted space on a commuter run. If these were being sent down to London from Crewe, I could see the point. On a commuter/suburban run, no way. The class 700 which replaced the 319 on Thameslink would be a better fit - 2+2 plus plenty of standing for the rush hour.
 

Grannyjoans

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There are over 40 class 331's entering service, and there aren't that many fully electrified Northern routes. So plenty to go around. I believe that the majority of the work which is currently 319 is going to be 331 soon.
 

Bovverboy

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Today's 319-operated 1427 Blackpool North to Hazel Grove service was today terminated short at Manchester Piccadilly owing to a 'planning error'. The 319 then ran ECS to Manchester Airport where it was ultimately attached to the rear of the (319-operated) 1637 Manchester Airport to Blackpool North. The latter arrived 6L at 1638 (i.e. a minute later than its scheduled departure time) and departed 12L at 1649. The rear unit remained out of use.
Three consecutive departures from Blackpool North to Manchester (1827 Hazel Grove, 1857 Manchester Airport, and 1925 Hazel Grove) have been cancelled, reason in each case given as driver shortage.
 

_toommm_

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Today's 319-operated 1427 Blackpool North to Hazel Grove service was today terminated short at Manchester Piccadilly owing to a 'planning error'. The 319 then ran ECS to Manchester Airport where it was ultimately attached to the rear of the (319-operated) 1637 Manchester Airport to Blackpool North. The latter arrived 6L at 1638 (i.e. a minute later than its scheduled departure time) and departed 12L at 1649. The rear unit remained out of use.
Three consecutive departures from Blackpool North to Manchester (1827 Hazel Grove, 1857 Manchester Airport, and 1925 Hazel Grove) have been cancelled, reason in each case given as driver shortage.
How did it fit in to MIA? I thought 8 cars wouldn't fit in the platforms?
 

Bovverboy

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How did it fit in to MIA? I thought 8 cars wouldn't fit in the platforms?
The Airport platforms are 200m long. An 8*20m double 319 is only 160m.
Plus a few more metres between individual carriages, and between the two units - but they still easily fit, as do 8-car 350s, which are fractionally longer.
In the days when the 319 working Airport - Picc used to be changed over with one doing Airport - Liverpool they usually used the same platform, and didn't need to be brought all that close to each other.
Even now the Liverpool-bound Chat Moss stopper usually uses the same platform as the Crewe-bound, whether 319 or 323.
 
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jawr256

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The 319 then ran ECS to Manchester Airport where it was ultimately attached to the rear of the (319-operated) 1637 Manchester Airport to Blackpool North. The latter arrived 6L at 1638 (i.e. a minute later than its scheduled departure time) and departed 12L at 1649. The rear unit remained out of use.
Having deduced this from RTT I watched this train arrive at Preston. The rear unit was empty but the lights were on and the doors appeared to be released on both units - not sure if the doors were locked somehow or the guard had otherwise prevented people from trying to board the rear unit.
 

Jamesrob637

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Today's 319-operated 1427 Blackpool North to Hazel Grove service was today terminated short at Manchester Piccadilly owing to a 'planning error'. The 319 then ran ECS to Manchester Airport where it was ultimately attached to the rear of the (319-operated) 1637 Manchester Airport to Blackpool North. The latter arrived 6L at 1638 (i.e. a minute later than its scheduled departure time) and departed 12L at 1649. The rear unit remained out of use.
Three consecutive departures from Blackpool North to Manchester (1827 Hazel Grove, 1857 Manchester Airport, and 1925 Hazel Grove) have been cancelled, reason in each case given as driver shortage.
The 20:27 to Hazel Grove was cancelled also! Very poor show.
 

Bletchleyite

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Having deduced this from RTT I watched this train arrive at Preston. The rear unit was empty but the lights were on and the doors appeared to be released on both units - not sure if the doors were locked somehow or the guard had otherwise prevented people from trying to board the rear unit.
To put it in this thread too, if I recall correctly on 1980s Mk3-based DMUs and EMUs the hazard light still lights even if you have locked the doors out mechanically.
 

Bovverboy

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Three consecutive departures from Blackpool North to Manchester (1827 Hazel Grove, 1857 Manchester Airport, and 1925 Hazel Grove) have been cancelled, reason in each case given as driver shortage.
The 20:27 to Hazel Grove was cancelled also! Very poor show.
Also cancelled were 2121 Blackpool North to Manchester Airport, 2218 Blackpool North to Huyton*, and 2313 Blackpool North to Manchester Airport.
* It had been due to terminate at Huyton owing to a Network Rail possession Huyton - Liverpool Lime Street.

So. after 1800 hrs last night the only trains to depart Blackpool North for Manchester were the 1958, 2058, and 2221 to Manchester Airport. Prior to the cancellation of the 2218 all Liverpool-direction trains had operated (1803, 1905, 2003, 2101) and so had all Leeds trains (1821, 1921, 2021, 2117, 2215). Also operated was the 2300 Blackburn, the stock for which, rather oddly, comes ECS from Blackburn.

In the opposite direction the 2038 and 2347 Manchester Airport to Blackpool North were cancelled, as were 2103 and 2203 Hazel Grove to Blackpool North.
 

Bovverboy

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I see that, while the Edge Hill re-signalling is going on this weekend, the TPEs are terminating at Victoria and the ex-Blackpool/Wigan NTs at St Helens Central. Today the Chat Moss stoppers are running to St Helens Junction, and the Warringtons are cancelled altogether. Tomorrow the Chat Moss stoppers are running to Earlestown.
Is there some reason why NT aren't running to Huyton?
 

_toommm_

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I see that, while the Edge Hill re-signalling is going on this weekend, the TPEs are terminating at Victoria and the ex-Blackpool/Wigan NTs at St Helens Central. Today the Chat Moss stoppers are running to St Helens Junction, and the Warringtons are cancelled altogether. Tomorrow the Chat Moss stoppers are running to Earlestown.
Is there some reason why NT aren't running to Huyton?
Looking at Huyton, they could feasibly arrive in to Platform 2 from St. Helens, but is the starting signal back to St. Helens from Platform 2 cleared for passenger service? That's the only problem I could see
 

Bovverboy

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Today, Sunday 10 November, we're back to the Manchester Victoria to Blackpool North stoppers being cancelled through driver shortage, rather than the Clitheroes (which are cancelled today Blackburn - Clitheroe through engineering works). Among other cancellations today the Yorkshire - Blackpool service is terminating at Hebden Bridge (engineering work) with bus substitution, as far as I can see, only over the section Hebden Bridge - Preston. That leaves 2tph between Blackpool North and Preston (Manchester Oxford Road and/or Airport generally at xx.00, and Liverpool mainly at xx.32). Unfortunately I suppose it was too much to hope that nothing else would go wrong, and it seems that the 1432 Liverpool has missed, leaving an hour gap between the 1400 Airport and 1500 Airport. The 0932 Liverpool departed at 0953, i.e. only a few minutes in front of the following Oxford Road, but at least it ran, and probably ensured that passengers wouldn't be left behind by the Oxford Road.

Straying a bit off-topic now, other services cancelled today include Lancaster - Morecambe (bus substitution) and Wigan North Western - Stalybridge (bus substitution Wigan NW - Bolton and Manchester Victoria - Stalybridge) - these are almost sure-fire casualties on Sundays at the moment. Also cancelled today is (on average) every other Southport - Todmorden (they are cancelled Todmorden - Blackburn through engineering works, with bus substitution). However I notice that two in a row are cancelled, both pre-planned.

A further engineering cancellation is the Colne - Preston section of the Blackpool South service.

According to Northern's website, a replacement bus is in operation between Blackpool North and Layton, to compensate for the lack of the Manchester Victorias. I have to say I'm surprised that the schedule can't be amended to arrange for the Liverpools, say, to pick up the Layton stop.

I say 'according to Northern's website', since the Layton buses don't appear on RTT, neither do those anywhere else where they have been provided to cover for a driver shortage, yet they are shown if they are covering for engineering closures. I appreciate that pre-planned cancellations are treated differently from impromptu, but the driver shortage cancellations are surely pre-planned, and appear in RTT as such. Yet the replacement buses aren't shown - any idea why not?
 

louis97

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Looking at Huyton, they could feasibly arrive in to Platform 2 from St. Helens, but is the starting signal back to St. Helens from Platform 2 cleared for passenger service? That's the only problem I could see
Turnback in platform 2 at Huyton is possible, however on this occasion Huyton was in the possession for the Edge Hill re-control. The Edge Hill area was joining the Liverpool workstation which also controls the Huyton area.
 

Bovverboy

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Reported elsewhere is 319373/374/376 and 382 are due off lease this week.
I caught a Blackpool North to Manchester Airport train last Thursday and it was a 156. How many EMU diagrams are going to be DMU-operated from next week?
 

Ogmore7035

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I was at Liverpool Lime street today and was struck by the paucity of Class 319s. When I went to London late last week from Northampton I was struck by the number of Class 319s at Bletchley sidings (not in LNWR livery). When I arrived back in Northampton tonight there were three or four Class 319 units in the sidings opposite the electric depot (where the class 365s were stored last year). The units seem to be light grey with dark blue doors but no decals. Could they be Northern Class 319s? Does anyone have any information?
 

sd0733

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I was at Liverpool Lime street today and was struck by the paucity of Class 319s. When I went to London late last week from Northampton I was struck by the number of Class 319s at Bletchley sidings (not in LNWR livery). When I arrived back in Northampton tonight there were three or four Class 319 units in the sidings opposite the electric depot (where the class 365s were stored last year). The units seem to be light grey with dark blue doors but no decals. Could they be Northern Class 319s? Does anyone have any information?
The units stabled north of Northampton arent class 319s, they are Tfl class 315s being warm stored there awaiting their turn to transfer to London Overground.
 

swt_passenger

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Plus a few more metres between individual carriages, and between the two units...
Not the case in my understanding, lengths are generally measured between coupling faces, and the spaces between cars of a typical MU are included in the usual 20m or 23m length.
 
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