360 running speed

[voyager1]

I've been looking through existing threads but can't find this information so apologies if I'm posting something that has already been discussed.

From what I understand, the EMR Connect services are limited to 100mph south of Bedford.

In recent weeks, there's been engineering works closing the lines between Luton/Bedford and St Pancras to upgrade the overhead power lines.

Does this mean the EMR Connect will be able to run at 110mph between St Pancras and Luton/Bedford? If so, will the journey times change and be reflected in a future timetable update?

They seem to like waiting at Luton Airport Parkway even when delayed and also some of the peak services take slightly longer to Luton (I was told on here this was because of old timetabling due to a TL that used platform 5 at Luton)

 

[notadriver]

I would think they will so as not to hold up 125 mph class 810s when they come into service.

On a separate note 110 mph class 387s are still restricted to 100 mph on the ECML.

 

[edwin_m]

I suspect they will take the saving from improved performance as improved performance as it were, meaning better recovery from delays in the existing timetable rather than trying to improve scheduled journey times. The interweaving between Thameslink, Connect and EMR Intercity is pretty intricate and a small delay can easily snowball.

 

[Bald Rick]

Confirming that the 360s will run at 110mph, where permitted.

Very unlikely that there will be any significant change to journey times. Perhaps a minute north of Bedford.

The fast lines from West Hampstead to Harpenden, Bedford and Kettering is just about the tightest stretch of railway in the country, taking into account the mix of service, stopping patterns, headways and junction margins. Having the 360s at 110mph (and the better acceleration of the 810s) will help punctuality a great deal.

 

[Supercoss]

The EMU 100 restriction between Bedford and Cricklewood is programmed to be withdrawn from July 28th start of service allowing 360s to operate at up to 110 mph .

 

[Railperf]

Confirming that the 360s will run at 110mph, where permitted.

Very unlikely that there will be any significant change to journey times. Perhaps a minute north of Bedford.

The fast lines from West Hampstead to Harpenden, Bedford and Kettering is just about the tightest stretch of railway in the country, taking into account the mix of service, stopping patterns, headways and junction margins. Having the 360s at 110mph (and the better acceleration of the 810s) will help punctuality a great deal.

Would we be right in saying that reliability and run times between Kentish Town and Bedford really hinges on Thameslink reliability crossing onto and off the fast lines on time? The fact that these are flat junctions doesn't help. And lets remember that the Class 700's will still run at 'only' 100mph for their short sprints along the main lines.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 May 2025 ==

I would think they will so as not to hold up 125 mph class 810s when they come into service.

On a separate note 110 mph class 387s are still restricted to 100 mph on the ECML.

I think that was a pantograph setup issue IIRC. It would help ECML main line reliability if they could run at 110mph. IIRC the issues was a 110mph panto setup not being suitable for the fragile OLE between Cambridge and KIngs Lynn. Under the current regime - No-one wants to seemingly spend the cash upgrading the OLE north of Cambridge because it doesn't bring in any extra cash in revenue - Hopefully when the TOC becomes part of GBR, it will be deemed worth resolving to aid reliability.

 

[43066]

Would we be right in saying that reliability and run times between Kentish Town and Bedford really hinges on Thameslink reliability crossing onto and off the fast lines on time? The fact that these are flat junctions doesn't help. And lets remember that the Class 700's will still run at 'only' 100mph for their short sprints along the main lines.

And signaller reliability of course .

 

[Bald Rick]

Would we be right in saying that reliability and run times between Kentish Town and Bedford really hinges on Thameslink reliability crossing onto and off the fast lines on time? The fact that these are flat junctions doesn't help. And lets remember that the Class 700's will still run at 'only' 100mph for their short sprints along the main lines.

It really hinges on right time presentation out of the core for all services (northbound), and on drivers driving to the full capability of the Class 700s (both directions). The latter can be a real issue, even a 1 minute delay caused by ‘gentle’ driving will delay following trains and cause a ripple effect, especially in the evening peak northbound, and morning oeak on the slow line southbound. It happens regularly. Right time presentation out of the core is improving as more drivers are ATO trained.

The 700s are very capable trains, and will be doing 100mph for 14 miles from just north of Cricklewood to the braking point for St Albans at the Mile House lane bridge.

 

[Railperf]

It really hinges on right time presentation out of the core for all services (northbound), and on drivers driving to the full capability of the Class 700s (both directions). The latter can be a real issue, even a 1 minute delay caused by ‘gentle’ driving will delay following trains and cause a ripple effect, especially in the evening peak northbound, and morning oeak on the slow line southbound. It happens regularly. Right time presentation out of the core is improving as more drivers are ATO trained.

The 700s are very capable trains, and will be doing 100mph for 14 miles from just north of Cricklewood to the braking point for St Albans at the Mile House lane bridge.

I rarely see a 700 driven at the full 100mph. 95mph seems to be the average, and if 100mph is reached it tends to be followed by coasting back to 90/95mph - so you end up with a sawtooth speed profile. Is it an issue with the power controller positions / power output that makes it difficult to maintain a steady 100? 360's in contrast seem much more adept to holding line speed.

 

[baz962]

I rarely see a 700 driven at the full 100mph. 95mph seems to be the average, and if 100mph is reached it tends to be followed by coasting back to 90/95mph - so you end up with a sawtooth speed profile. Is it an issue with the power controller positions / power output that makes it difficult to maintain a steady 100? 360's in contrast seem much more adept to holding line speed.

Just better drivers on the 360's

 

[QSK19]

Just better drivers on the 360's

Goes without saying, of course

 

[Railperf]

Just better drivers on the 360's

Or is it that driving policies are so defensively centric that when a driver needs to 'drive' to make up time they either find it difficult to adapt to a more press-on driving style, or afraid to? I once mete a Scotrail driver whp despite running late - ambled along between stations below line speeds, cautious station approaches etc. His view was that if for operational reasons the train was late, he wasn't concerned with making up time and that his TOC policy - back in 2019 - was to drive normally. He wasnt going to be penalised for the delay, so he wasn't bothered!

 

[westcoaster]

Just better drivers on the 360's

Us 700 drivers struggle behind those aged 222's and 360's out of London.
Can keep the 222's honest until Radlett.

700's do not hold 100mph as the power controller has to be constantly adjusted, older desiro units 350's looking at you, can leave the power controller wide open and the unit will hold 99.9 mph with no adjustment.

 

[Railperf]

Us 700 drivers struggle behind those aged 222's and 360's out of London.
Can keep the 222's honest until Radlett.

700's do not hold 100mph as the power controller has to be constantly adjusted, older desiro units 350's looking at you, can leave the power controller wide open and the unit will hold 99.9 mph with no adjustment.

A bit of tongue in cheek there, lol, but thanks for confirming what I suspected about the power controller. So what happens if you leave the controller wide open as on a 350/360? BTW I have seen an honest 102/103mph on a 360 while limted to 100mph on GA metals, and at least 112mph on EMR. In the early days on EMR there was also the odd 110mph foray south of Bedford - which was picked up and addressed with extra signage.

 

[43066]

So what happens if you leave the controller wide open as on a 350/360?

It’ll sit at 110 max, even down a steep incline.

 

[Snow1964]

A bit of tongue in cheek there, lol, but thanks for confirming what I suspected about the power controller. So what happens if you leave the controller wide open as on a 350/360? BTW I have seen an honest 102/103mph on a 360 while limted to 100mph on GA metals, and at least 112mph on EMR. In the early days on EMR there was also the odd 110mph foray south of Bedford - which was picked up and addressed with extra signage.

Probably a calibration issue of wheel size and indicated speed.

An error of 1 or 2% is quite small, if you think about it one rotation of the wheel (circumference) depends on exact wheel diameter, and diameter is divided by Pi. Tyre turning of just 1mm taken off surface (reducing radius), knows 6.3mm off distance travelled (one wheel rotation). You will soon realise a 1% error is not going to be unheard of

 

[baz962]

Us 700 drivers struggle behind those aged 222's and 360's out of London.
Can keep the 222's honest until Radlett.

700's do not hold 100mph as the power controller has to be constantly adjusted, older desiro units 350's looking at you, can leave the power controller wide open and the unit will hold 99.9 mph with no adjustment.

Oh yes. You out accelerate us . Tortoise and the hare though

 

[Railperf]

Oh yes. You out accelerate us . Tortoise and the hare though

Then again - it seems to be the case that the majority of 360's are not driven flat out , the same as most 350s. These are capable of 0 to 60mph in 44 secs or thereabouts flat out - whereas most that I travel on are driven - let's say - more leisurely - resulting in 0 to 60 times somewhere between 50 and 60s. Unless loads of these are being driven with some sort of traction issue - that does suggest milder use of the power
Whereas I would say most 700's seem to be driven a bit more lively - power and braking - even if maintaining line speed is more of an issue.

EDIT : It is a shame the 700s don't seem to have a speed hold / speed limiter function. Most of the time it seems drivers back off acceleration at 98 mph for fear of exceeding 100. My most recent journey saw St Alban's departed 1.5 min down 98mph reached...then a coast down to 93mph- power back on - same thing again. So the average speed over a section where a 360 will maintain a flat 100 sees the 700's averaging 95-96mph , which does not help timekeeping. I don't understand why the power controller design and implementation should be so different that the 700s cannot be held at the line speed far more easily.

The layout at Bedford for southbound EMR trains is poor and a real time loser compared to Northbound stops. Shame nothing has been done to improve that.
If the Corby service is running late it can ended up routed on the up slow from Bedford to avoid delaying faster trains. Also a shame that the slow lines aren't improved to allow a minimum 100mph - which would aid matters and time recovery.

 

[baz962]

Then again - it seems to be the case that the majority of 360's are not driven flat out , the same as most 350s. These are capable of 0 to 60mph in 44 secs or thereabouts flat out - whereas most that I travel on are driven - let's say - more leisurely - resulting in 0 to 60 times somewhere between 50 and 60s. Unless loads of these are being driven with some sort of traction issue - that does suggest milder use of the power
Whereas I would say most 700's seem to be driven a bit more lively - power and braking - even if maintaining line speed is more of an issue.

The layout at Bedford for southbound EMR trains is poor and a real time loser compared to Northbound stops. Shame nothing has been done to improve that.
If the Corby service is running late it can ended up routed on the up slow from Bedford to avoid delaying faster trains. Also a shame that the slow lines aren't improved to allow a minimum 100mph - which would aid matters and time recovery.

To be fair the difference between 90 on the slow and 100 on the fast until Flitwick is negligible. Only 75 through the tunnel , but it's the slow crossover again. Even if I open a 360 flat out a 700 trounces me.

 

[Railperf]

To be fair the difference between 90 on the slow and 100 on the fast until Flitwick is negligible. Only 75 through the tunnel , but it's the slow crossover again. Even if I open a 360 flat out a 700 trounces me.

Not a surprise - a 700 reaches 60 in 39s and get to the 'ton' in 100 sec. 360s almost as fast to 60 but lack power over 85mph and reach the ton 150sec

 

[43066]

Oh yes. You out accelerate us . Tortoise and the hare though

I think the EMR policy is more aggressive (or maybe more accurate to say the TL policy is more restrictive!). I regularly seem to out brake 700s into Luton and Airport. It’s notable that I often out accelerate them too, even when they’re also on greens, and we know the 360 is a slower unit.

Then again - it seems to be the case that the majority of 360's are not driven flat out , the same as most 350s. These are capable of 0 to 60mph in 44 secs or thereabouts flat out - whereas most that I travel on are driven - let's say - more leisurely - resulting in 0 to 60 times somewhere between 50 and 60s. Unless loads of these are being driven with some sort of traction issue - that does suggest milder use of the power
Whereas I would say most 700's seem to be driven a bit more lively - power and braking - even if maintaining line speed is more of an issue.

The 360s are *generally* accelerated flat out as taught - notched up steadily to max by around 5mph. Nobody should be accelerating on partial power absent restrictive aspects or adhesion issues. Not all units will perform precisely to book for a variety of reasons, of course.

 

[AM9]

Not a surprise - a 700 reaches 60 in 39s and get to the 'ton' in 100 sec. 360s almost as fast to 60 but lack power over 85mph and reach the ton 150sec

The WTT typically gives 12minutes to cover the 17.73 miles between the crossover from slow to fasts at Carlton Road junc. (with a maximum 50mph speed limit), to a standstill at St Albans. That's an average of over 88mph, no mean feat, done twice per hour (and similar up speeds) and I doubt it would make any useful difference if the maximum speed was 110 mph.
As for the 222s racing away in front, often the transition at Carlton Road is slowed down and full speed (100mph) is not reached until after Slipstream, the diesel smellof the following Nottingham is evidence of their thrashing to get away.

 

[43066]

As for the 222s racing away in front, often the transition at Carlton Road is slowed down and full speed (100mph) is not reached until after Slipstream, the diesel smellof the following Nottingham is evidence of their thrashing to get away.

A healthy 222 will be >100 level with Brent Cross West. 110 line speed but drops to 105 for the Silkstream curve, so most hold 105 until roughly abeam Hendon RAF museum.

Admittedly not exactly “racing away” with a max 25mph speed differential.

 

[Bald Rick]

As for the 222s racing away in front, often the transition at Carlton Road is slowed down and full speed (100mph) is not reached until after Slipstream, the diesel smellof the following Nottingham is evidence of their thrashing to get away.

#autocorrect has done you there!

A down TL service crossing at Carlton Road directly behind a Nottingham (the TL given a single yellow at the junction signal) will be on greens by the time it is through Belsize tunnel, if not before. And if driven per the capbility of the train, will be through West hampstead at the 80mph limit, and doing the 95mph limit by Cricklewood. Then doing 100mph by Brent Cross West, not long after the limit lifts to that speed. It will then get a YY somewhere around Silkstream / Mill Hill as it has caught up the Nottingham.

 

[westcoaster]

Oh yes. You out accelerate us . Tortoise and the hare though

I never accelerate at more than 60% power 60% brake as it's just not needed.

 

[edwin_m]

As for the 222s racing away in front, often the transition at Carlton Road is slowed down and full speed (100mph) is not reached until after Slipstream, the diesel smellof the following Nottingham is evidence of their thrashing to get away.

#autocorrect has done you there!

Though strangely appropriate for the comment about diesel fumes.

 

[londonmidland]

I’ve had an interesting ‘race’ between a 222 and 360 on the Up at Luton Airport Parkway. Both lines had cleared so it was full power up the incline. The 360 won with the acceleration (albeit slow overtake), however it wasn’t a bad effort from the 222.

 

[notadriver]

I’ve had an interesting ‘race’ between a 222 and 360 on the Up at Luton Airport Parkway. Both lines had cleared so it was full power up the incline. The 360 won with the acceleration (albeit slow overtake), however it wasn’t a bad effort from the 222.

Were you driving ?

 

[dk1]

Or is it that driving policies are so defensively centric that when a driver needs to 'drive' to make up time they either find it difficult to adapt to a more press-on driving style, or afraid to? I once mete a Scotrail driver whp despite running late - ambled along between stations below line speeds, cautious station approaches etc. His view was that if for operational reasons the train was late, he wasn't concerned with making up time and that his TOC policy - back in 2019 - was to drive normally. He wasnt going to be penalised for the delay, so he wasn't bothered!

That attitude has always frustrated me. I was even once told by a driver manager that it doesn’t matter if we are late as it wasn’t our fault.

 

[Dave W]

A healthy 222 will be >100 level with Brent Cross West. 110 line speed but drops to 105 for the Silkstream curve, so most hold 105 until roughly abeam Hendon RAF museum.

Admittedly not exactly “racing away” with a max 25mph speed differential.

Interesting this - my office has a vista view of the railway as it skirts round the back of the RAF Museum and I've always been of the view the 222s are flying at this point, whereas the 700s (obv not the stoppers!) are more leisurely. But perhaps that's just perception - maybe because they're longer?

On a quiet, still day sat out on the 4th floor terrace the peace can be shattered! Many an hour spent "working" out there watching the railway in operation.