379001 - broken buttons and worn seats.

[jon0844]

How old are the 379s now?

I came back from Liverpool Street on 379001 this afternoon and it's already looking pretty worn, but worse than that are the buttons.

Two in the (disabled) toilet, two on the outside to open the toilet doors and as I walked through the carriage, one button to open the internal doors and also some broken buttons on the external doors! Can't imagine the other carriages being much better.

I didn't want to go taking loads of photos on a fairly busy train, but here are the two in the toilet.

Where did Bombardier find these? It seems like a pretty bad design to me, as I can't remember ever seeing any buttons broken on any other train! The only good thing is that they still work if you press the little microswitch in the middle, but that's hardly ideal.




These trains really aren't going to manage 40 years are they!

 

[317666]

Almost all of the 379s I've been on have had buttons missing at least somewhere in the train. They're only about two years old now I think, I can't see them lasting nearly as long as the 317s have! Another thing I've noticed on a lot of them is that the seats tend to shake when no-one is sitting in them, and the internal door through to first class is very rattly.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if these buttons came from AnsaldoBreda?!

If this has been an issue for some time, GA really ought to be taking the problem seriously.

 

[fgwrich]

Almost all of the 379s I've been on have had buttons missing at least somewhere in the train. They're only about two years old now I think, I can't see them lasting nearly as long as the 317s have! Another thing I've noticed on a lot of them is that the seats tend to shake when no-one is sitting in them, and the internal door through to first class is very rattly.

This is the part where I come along with something cheeky on the lines of 'What do you expect from Bombardier' but these are most likely to be manufactured by an outside company. The seat issue however is just another one of Bombardiers little annoyances. on what I've always thought wasn't that good a train. But broken fittings however are part of GAs control and maintenance / bombardiers and if they really are falling apart at such a rate, BA not only ought to be doing something about it but if it's under warranty then fix / replace it!

 

[rebmcr]

Surely these buttons are no longer compliant, and thus a breach of accessibility regulations?

 

[bronzeonion]

I dont understand why the bits come off the buttons on the 379's all the other trains with that style button dont have this problem!

 

[Nym]

I beleive these buttons are manufactured by EAO...

http://www.railway-technology.com/contractors/door/eao

The same company manufactures the cab buttons for most of Derby's products, including several rather large recent orders...

 

[chris89]

Not related to 379s.

I have noticed on LMs 172/2s & /3s a few buttons have disappeared from the door controls as well.

Although rest of the units still look extremely nice and new.

Chris

 

[Nym]

Not related to 379s.

I have noticed on LMs 172/2s & /3s a few buttons have disappeared from the door controls as well.

Although rest of the units still look extremely nice and new.

Chris

Well, it is related to the 379s...

Since it's appearing on the 172s as well, could it perhaps be a dodgy batch from EAO?

I'm more wondring, since the buttons are still very much in production, why they have simply not been replaced when noticed on train prep or exam?

 

[fordylad]

The buttons on the outside of our turbos. Are regularly smashed by "customers" using their umbrellas to open the doors !

 

[pemma]

These trains really aren't going to manage 40 years are they!

Well buttons is quite often something that get replaced. Many of the original Sprinter buttons have been replaced.

The class 185 seat covers started to look worn pretty quickly as well, despite the lack of padding on the seats. However, maybe that's down to more intensive use then was intended?

 

[jon0844]

I'm sure buttons are replaced more often than the trains themselves, but I am sure they're meant to last longer than two years.

And usually they're replaced on an entire train to perhaps comply with new regulations, not because they broke.

 

[Crossover]

I'll get the pic off my phone later, but I noticed a few missing buttons on the LM 172's the other week and took a pic of one since the last one I saw was on a train with only me and maybe one or two other passengers on it (early Bank Holiday Monday mornings don't tend to get the crowds out :P)

 

[Nym]

I'm sure buttons are replaced more often than the trains themselves, but I am sure they're meant to last longer than two years.

And usually they're replaced on an entire train to perhaps comply with new regulations, not because they broke.

You'd be supprised how long buttons are certified to last, the contol buttons on Class 172s for example are EAO 22mm Pannel buttons, with an MTBF of 1,000,000. But think about how many times some of these buttons are pressed per day, especially on commuter routes, such as Door Release buttons, and you can work out that they will very quickly start breaking more frequently than campaign replacements for compliance...

 

[jon0844]

I'd say you'd take some time to reach 1,000,000 presses.. especially internal doors or those for the toilets. Or indeed a door close button (should have checked which one was broken).

It could be that someone has found a very quick and easy way to break the button, deliberately, but they should also be vandal resistant/proof I'd have thought. It looks like the button cover/panel is just clipped on.

 

[edwin_m]

A push every 3min for 20hr would be 400 operations, and a million operations would require 2500 such operating days or somewhere around 8 years. This is a high-side calculation and in practice it would usually take a lot longer to get to a million, so it's pretty clear the ones on 379s can't have got anywhere near that.

I've only once or twice seen an operating button in this state even on the 170s that have had them in use for around 15 years, so it sounds like these are less robust than their predecessors.

 

[jon0844]

I had a problem with a Philips LED bulb that went in about 10 days. I contacted Philips and they asked me to send it back to them for investigation. A few weeks later they confirmed it was faulty and said they'd send a replacement (from Holland) - and it took just shy of six months to arrive. (But that's not relevant, just worth mentioning in case anyone else has a problem with one of their bulbs).

When I got the new bulb, I got a standard letter that said that while bulbs are advertised with a 10,000 or 20,000 average life (can't remember which), it does mean that some bulbs will fail earlier and some later. Well I never, I thought they just blew up one minute after the advertised time.

I couldn't work out if they were trying to suggest that failing after just over a week was normal and they were replacing the bulb as a goodwill gesture or something. If what was probably about 20 hours tops is to be considered within an acceptable tolerance, I have to assume some of the same bulbs will last about a billion years!

 

[MCR247]

This is the first time I've ever seen/heard of this, with 170s probably being my most travelled stock

 

[edwin_m]

It's what is known as a bathtub reliability curve. The rate of failure is high in the first few hours/days/weeks as most of the manufacturing faults become evident (the tap end of the bath). The equipment should then be very reliable for a long time, with the failure rate low and fairly steady along the bottom of the bath before increasing gradually as things wear out.

 

[jon0844]

Certainly with electronics a lot of the time a fault will make itself known quite quickly and if it does not, it will probably be just fine (if not actually damaged by the user, or there's some inherent design fault).

It seems probable that the buttons were life tested based on little more than pressing the button over and over - so not other things, like being knocked from the side or perhaps even the vibration of the train etc.

 

[Nym]

Certainly with electronics a lot of the time a fault will make itself known quite quickly and if it does not, it will probably be just fine (if not actually damaged by the user, or there's some inherent design fault).

It seems probable that the buttons were life tested based on little more than pressing the button over and over - so not other things, like being knocked from the side or perhaps even the vibration of the train etc.

Well, reading EAO's blerb they shouldn't break from abuse, but to be honest, they say a lot of things..

 

[jon0844]

I saw these on their website;

The new standard

Buttons that break within 5 presses?

Feel the fascination.

 

[Nym]

Bombardier are currently using the older Series 56 buttons...

 

[43021HST]

middle, but that's hardly ideal.

View attachment 14965
View attachment 14966

These trains really aren't going to manage 40 years are they!

Nothing a refurbishment wont fix.

 

[jon0844]

They better not wait until a refurb in 5-10 years to fix something as important as buttons!

 

[millemille]

EAO buttons are spot on. I've been working with EAO and their products, both on new build and retrofit, for 14 years and never ever had any reliability issues with them....

 

[jon0844]

So who makes the buttons on the 379s then? They are seriously unfit for purpose.

 

[Eagle]

But think about how many times some of these buttons are pressed per day, especially on commuter routes, such as Door Release buttons, and you can work out that they will very quickly start breaking more frequently than campaign replacements for compliance...

A door release button, even on a frequent-stop route such as the Snow Hill lines, probably won't be used more than about 250 times a day, I reckon. So that's 4000 days of service, or about 11 years.

Of course this is assuming the button is only pressed once per use, which having seen passengers' habit of hammering the button until the unlocked light actually comes on, is far from accurate... :roll:

 

[Nym]

So who makes the buttons on the 379s then? They are seriously unfit for purpose.

They're EAO Series 56...

A door release button, even on a frequent-stop route such as the Snow Hill lines, probably won't be used more than about 250 times a day, I reckon. So that's 4000 days of service, or about 11 years.

Of course this is assuming the button is only pressed once per use, which having seen passengers' habit of hammering the button until the unlocked light actually comes on, is far from accurate... :roll:

I've just done a reliability study on consoles and console buttons, and I get a lifespan of around 4 to 5 years on console door open / release buttons.

EAO aren't too good at resisting enviromental issues by the way, such as dust and vibration, but still, they do perform better than Baco units.

I'm reserving judgement on EAO's current implimentation of 22mm push button consoles until I've seen them in place for a long enough time, the only place I'm involved in them has just had a campaign replacement about a year ago when they were not very old, so it remains to be seen. Like I said, they do seem more solid and better implimented than Baco units, but I still see premature failures in service coming across my desk with managers demanding an explanation.

 

[Crossover]

I'll get the pic off my phone later, but I noticed a few missing buttons on the LM 172's the other week and took a pic of one since the last one I saw was on a train with only me and maybe one or two other passengers on it (early Bank Holiday Monday mornings don't tend to get the crowds out :P)

Here we are



I think this has failed on the MTBF test...it turns out it is actually the door close button!

It wasn't the only such missing button I saw over the weekend in the area on the 172's and it was different units each time!