3tph on North Downs Line

[Ianno87]

This is partially off-topic but I have to disagree

Evenly Spaced - it used to be that way
To Victoria in 2012 was xx:16 and xx:48 - 28 mins then 32
From Victoria it was xx:02 & xx:32 - exactly 30 mins gap

London Bridge was xx:07, xx:19, xx:37, xx:51
From LBG it was xx:03, xx:15, xx:33, xx:45
Both of which are fairly even and allows passengers to turn up and go

Yes in 2016 it is not that because of the diversion of half the London Bridge services to Blackfriars via Tulse Hill - one of the pains we have had to suffer to get the not improved timetable in 2018


The May 2018 proposal
As put forward at the public meeting in November and on the draft timetable was: -
Victoria every 30 minutes - still very even but journey time from 27 mins to 39 mins - a 40% increase
London Bridge - 10 mins then 20 mins which is very uneven and ruins the turn up and go aspect as you could have a 20 minute wait for the next one, 15 is the limit for turn up and go.

Reality is the plan doesn't appreciate that London Bridge and Victoria are completely different destinations as far as Redhill customers are concerned. You either go to one or the other not either.

So the concept of splitting the timetable evenly over both destinations is not valid and the proposed May 2018 timetable for Redhill is a terrible let down by GTR against their promises of improved services.

Would your need to specifically go to Victoria not reduce, given that trains to "London Bridge" (which will actually be cross-London Thameslink trains to Peterborough or Bedford) will serve Farringdon, for a dead easy interchange on to the Elizabeth Line for the West End, or for travelling directly to St Pancras?

Granted, if you wanted to specifically go to Victoria* and are fixated on getting a direct train (as opposed to taking the first train and changing at East Croydon if necessary) you are worse off, although an even 10 minute headway will better spread passenger loading (with better performance) for those who couldn't care less.

Otherwise, I'm struggling with how this could not be seen as a pretty pragmatic service offering for Redhill.

*District and Circle line connections also available at Blackfriars.

 

[Minstral25]

Would your need to specifically go to Victoria not reduce, given that trains to "London Bridge" (which will actually be cross-London Thameslink trains to Peterborough or Bedford) will serve Farringdon, for a dead easy interchange on to the Elizabeth Line for the West End, or for travelling directly to St Pancras?

Granted, if you wanted to specifically go to Victoria* and are fixated on getting a direct train (as opposed to taking the first train and changing at East Croydon if necessary) you are worse off, although an even 10 minute headway will better spread passenger loading (with better performance) for those who couldn't care less.

Otherwise, I'm struggling with how this could not be seen as a pretty pragmatic service offering for Redhill.

*District and Circle line connections also available at Blackfriars.

Most passengers would prefer a single train to their destination. In this case rather than changing at East Croydon which is an absolute nightmare for changing especially if you have kids or luggage.

Also if you want Clapham Junction for Wimbledon or other SWT destinations, for London Overground or for West London destinations from Victoria then trains to London Bridge and Thameslink are of no use. Statistics issued by Thameslink for the consultation show that Clapham Junction to change for SWT/Overground is the third highest destination from Redhill, after Victoria and London Bridge.

Hence it is not pragmatic at all as it does not consider the actual users, just the convenience for the rail company to run a train evenly separated.

 

[tsr]

When I started commuting to Redhill in 2006, I could usually get from the M25 roundabout to the turning into Raglan Road (about 1/2 mile before the level crossing) without much hold-up most mornings. Within a few years, the regular tail-back was well back up the hill toward the M25 junction, and on bad days went back round the roundabout itself. I now use a different route in the mornings, but it's regularly backed-up to the roundabout in the evening as well - that's around a 1.5 mile queue.

You're quite right. The other day, on an otherwise totally unremarkable evening with no major traffic incidents, I managed to better my previous record by beating at least two or three cars in the queue between Wray Lane / Gatton Bottom and the Raglan Road area (from which the traffic was equally slow).

I was walking. Not especially fast, either...

 

[The Ham]

I find it difficult to believe that traffic using Reigate crossing has doubled in the last 10 years when DfT statistics state that total vehicle miles in the UK have only increased by 3.2% since 2005.
Source (opens a PDF)

DFT has traffic data freely available, anyone wanting to look in Surrey can do so here:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-counts/cp.php?la=Surrey

With the A217 data being here:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-counts/cp.php?la=Surrey#78293

That shows that between 2000 and 2017 the lowest flow for the road was 14,993 (2006) and the highest was 18,796 (2015), which gives you growth between those two years of 25%. However, if you use the flows from 2004 (15,769, which also broadly correlates with the average for 2000 to 2005 at 15,610) then the growth is closer to 20%.

The reason for using the 2004 figure; it is possible that there was something in 2006 that resulted in a below average figure, as it is worth noting that in 2007 the flow was 17,691 meaning that the numbers of vehicles increased by 2,700 out of the 3,800 happened in one year.

 

[Minstral25]

Just reading on another thread that the 166's are off to Bristol and the 165's will be running the North Downs Line. That would imply that first class is to be removed from the Gatwick trains as the 165's are second class only.

 

[Deepgreen]

Just reading on another thread that the 166's are off to Bristol and the 165's will be running the North Downs Line. That would imply that first class is to be removed from the Gatwick trains as the 165's are second class only.

I've seen it suggested that some 166s are to 'go west', but not necessarily all. I haven't seen any confirmation of plans yet. It's been said that the 166s would be retained on the NDL owing to their luggage capacity. I suppose there's nothing to prevent a mini-refurbishment of the 165s to provide a first class section and more luggage space, but, given the cost of that, I suspect the 166s will be staying on the Gatwicks.

 

[JonathanH]

There is also a posting on the wnxx forum that 165/166 won't be cleared into Portsmouth before 2019 so while 166s can take over Severn Beach / Bristol locals they can't take over Cardiff to Portsmouth just yet.

Don't forget also that there was a plan to fithe some sort of air cooling to the 165s so some possibility of an upgrade still.

 

[Clarence Yard]

There is also a posting on the wnxx forum that 165/166 won't be cleared into Portsmouth before 2019 so while 166s can take over Severn Beach / Bristol locals they can't take over Cardiff to Portsmouth just yet.

Don't forget also that there was a plan to fithe some sort of air cooling to the 165s so some possibility of an upgrade still.

That posting on wnxx was wrong. The clearance date for Pompey-Cardiff is still May 2018 with potentially one five car circuit cutting over during the summer and the rest being converted when Newbury gets wired, probably December 2018.

The 166 fleet is going to Bristol - indeed it should be 16 units by the end of January 2018, working all Bristol radial routes except for Pompey-Cardiff. Air cooling is being fitted to all the 165/1 fleet and there will have to be some luggage stacks fitted to the 3 cars for the Gatwick diagrams.

 

[Deepgreen]

That posting on wnxx was wrong. The clearance date for Pompey-Cardiff is still May 2018 with potentially one five car circuit cutting over during the summer and the rest being converted when Newbury gets wired, probably December 2018.

The 166 fleet is going to Bristol - indeed it should be 16 units by the end of January 2018, working all Bristol radial routes except for Pompey-Cardiff. Air cooling is being fitted to all the 165/1 fleet and there will have to be some luggage stacks fitted to the 3 cars for the Gatwick diagrams.

With first class as well?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Does this route need first-class? Not really.

 

[Deepgreen]

Does this route need first-class? Not really.

Perhaps not, but it has it now (although the accommodation is now almost impossible to identify as such). If it is to be withdrawn, so be it, but there has been nothing said about this. Mind you, nothing was publicised either about the withdrawal on the Reading to Redhill stoppers so I expect there will be the usual muddling through, with even the guards not knowing what's going on (as I encountered when first class went on the stoppers in October 2015!).

 

[Bishopstone]

In my limited experience of the North Downs Line, genuine First Class patronage is reasonable: a combination of folk from the south-east avoiding cross-London connections and travelling on to GWML destinations; and Reading business traffic, probably on expenses.

I imagine there is some season ticket business towards the Reading end, too, though perhaps the poor provision and lack of enforcement has supressed that demand.

 

[387star]

In my limited experience of the North Downs Line, genuine First Class patronage is reasonable: a combination of folk from the south-east avoiding cross-London connections and travelling on to GWML destinations; and Reading business traffic, probably on expenses.

I imagine there is some season ticket business towards the Reading end, too, though perhaps the poor provision and lack of enforcement has supressed that demand.

Was on a 166 from reigate and sat in the old first class... Was very obvious as the door was stuck open and no labels whatsoever and it looked like passengers weren't concerned about using it comfy seats too but tables intact.. Thought they were removing those. Or is that from 165 first class?

Still stuffy trains a new air cooling system would be welcome

 

[Deepgreen]

Was on a 166 from reigate and sat in the old first class... Was very obvious as the door was stuck open and no labels whatsoever and it looked like passengers weren't concerned about using it comfy seats too but tables intact.. Thought they were removing those. Or is that from 165 first class?

Still stuffy trains a new air cooling system would be welcome

As many 166s have their supposed first class with the doors stuck open, few or no labels and no anti-macassars, I would suggest that it's anything but very obvious! It's become almost impossible to tell (even as a railway professional) which end is supposed to be the proper first these days - even the exterior designations have been messed up!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Why not stick a letter on the front ends of each unit?

A or yellow stripe above the cab at the first class end.

B - which is going to be the centre car where Bike space is

C - Cheap aka "Std" Seats

 

[Deepgreen]

Why not stick a letter on the front ends of each unit?

A or yellow stripe above the cab at the first class end.

B - which is going to be the centre car where Bike space is

C - Cheap aka "Std" Seats

Yes, but GWR can't get the labelling right now, so why would they be any more likely to get the lettering right? They've abandoned the bold yellow stripe that appeared on the 166s when they went from 'Dynamic Lines' to plain blue livery, and which was very clear, to the ridiculous pencil-thin silver cant-rail stripe that is both almost impossible to see (even if passengers know what it denotes) and wrongly applied on several units!

 

[FenMan]

Yes, but GWR can't get the labelling right now, so why would they be any more likely to get the lettering right? They've abandoned the bold yellow stripe that appeared on the 166s when they went from 'Dynamic Lines' to plain blue livery, and which was very clear, to the ridiculous pencil-thin silver cant-rail stripe that is both almost impossible to see (even if passengers know what it denotes) and wrongly applied on several units!

I mainly travel on the NDL at weekends and head for the comfy seats that don't have an engine whirring away beneath them. I don't think I've inadvertently been travelling First Class, but who knows?

 

[DelW]

Mind you, nothing was publicised either about the withdrawal on the Reading to Redhill stoppers so I expect there will be the usual muddling through, with even the guards not knowing what's going on (as I encountered when first class went on the stoppers in October 2015!).

I travel quite regularly on this line and I hadn't realised until now that all first class on the stoppers is automatically declassified. When travelling on a standard ticket, I usually look for space in the ex first class bays, and I agree that it's often hard to be sure whether it's declassified or not, so it's useful to know that I'm always OK to sit there on the stoppers. Though it's a long time since I encountered an on board ticket check on these services anyway - the last time was on an evening peak train out of Reading, and did result in several pax being required to move from first into the (packed) standard area. On that occasion I was coming back from a long-distance trip to the west so I did have an advance first class ticket.

 

[The Ham]

I travel quite regularly on this line and I hadn't realised until now that all first class on the stoppers is automatically declassified. When travelling on a standard ticket, I usually look for space in the ex first class bays, and I agree that it's often hard to be sure whether it's declassified or not, so it's useful to know that I'm always OK to sit there on the stoppers. Though it's a long time since I encountered an on board ticket check on these services anyway - the last time was on an evening peak train out of Reading, and did result in several pax being required to move from first into the (packed) standard area. On that occasion I was coming back from a long-distance trip to the west so I did have an advance first class ticket.

There is also the opposite problem where the far trains still have first class but get sent out with units with no first class, the other day on one service that is supposed to have first class the was a first class season ticket holder requesting a note from the guard (so as to get a refund) was saying that they had only been on a unit with first class a few times on that service since Christmas.

The gates was a bit bemused as the service called at Farnborough North and so assumed that it was supposed to be all standard class anyway until they were shown the timetable.

Personally I think that the sooner that 3tph can be brought about the better, even better still if the 319 flex could be brought in as well (assuming that it works well). As even if seating numbers aren't any different (and IIRC they have about 15 more seats) the loading/unloading will be better as there would be another coach with two extra sets of doors.

 

[Deepgreen]

There is also the opposite problem where the far trains still have first class but get sent out with units with no first class, the other day on one service that is supposed to have first class the was a first class season ticket holder requesting a note from the guard (so as to get a refund) was saying that they had only been on a unit with first class a few times on that service since Christmas.

The gates was a bit bemused as the service called at Farnborough North and so assumed that it was supposed to be all standard class anyway until they were shown the timetable.

Personally I think that the sooner that 3tph can be brought about the better, even better still if the 319 flex could be brought in as well (assuming that it works well). As even if seating numbers aren't any different (and IIRC they have about 15 more seats) the loading/unloading will be better as there would be another coach with two extra sets of doors.

Sorry - don't understand these references.

 

[DelW]

Sorry - don't understand these references.

I think the previous poster fell foul of the dreaded auto-correct, I suspect he meant "fast trains" and "the guard" respectively. Though if so, the second comment is a bit odd as I would expect the guard to know whether his/her train should have had first class or not regardless of any variation in the stopping pattern.

 

[Deepgreen]

I think the previous poster fell foul of the dreaded auto-correct, I suspect he meant "fast trains" and "the guard" respectively. Though if so, the second comment is a bit odd as I would expect the guard to know whether his/her train should have had first class or not regardless of any variation in the stopping pattern.

Yes, one would hope so, but I witnessed a guard on the NDL move a group of schoolboys out of the first class area on a stopping train in 2016. I had a quiet word with him on his way back through and he had no idea that from October 2015, first class had been abolished on the stoppers!

 

[DelW]

Prompted by The Ham's comment about Farnborough North, I looked again at the current timetable, and the stopping pattern en-route doesn't necessarily determine whether or not the first class is in use. There are several peak hour trains that do have first class despite stopping all-stations between Reading and Guildford (including Farnborough North), and a couple of late evening trains that have it despite stopping all-stations throughout (even at Wanborough).

The deciding factor seems to be at the east end - any train to/from Gatwick has first class in use, and any train turning back at Redhill does not. (Apologies if you were already aware of this, as mentioned earlier it's news to me although I use the line regularly).

 

[Deepgreen]

Prompted by The Ham's comment about Farnborough North, I looked again at the current timetable, and the stopping pattern en-route doesn't necessarily determine whether or not the first class is in use. There are several peak hour trains that do have first class despite stopping all-stations between Reading and Guildford (including Farnborough North), and a couple of late evening trains that have it despite stopping all-stations throughout (even at Wanborough).

The deciding factor seems to be at the east end - any train to/from Gatwick has first class in use, and any train turning back at Redhill does not. (Apologies if you were already aware of this, as mentioned earlier it's news to me although I use the line regularly).

Correct. BTW, FGW's October 2015 timetable booklet showed (erroneously) the 1743 and 1843 departures from Redhill (reversers) as having first class.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Actually the deciding factor is which services are diagrammed a Class 166 unit (note that is 'diagrammed' and not 'allocated'!)

The fact that they are the Gatwick trains is a reflection of the needs of the through airport traffic for larger luggage space / air con etc and demand for First Class.

 

[The Ham]

I think the previous poster fell foul of the dreaded auto-correct, I suspect he meant "fast trains" and "the guard" respectively. Though if so, the second comment is a bit odd as I would expect the guard to know whether his/her train should have had first class or not regardless of any variation in the stopping pattern.

You are correct with the auto correct words. Sorry I normally read though my posts to check.

 

[TEW]

Actually the deciding factor is which services are diagrammed a Class 166 unit (note that is 'diagrammed' and not 'allocated'!)

The fact that they are the Gatwick trains is a reflection of the needs of the through airport traffic for larger luggage space / air con etc and demand for First Class.

AFAIK all the North Downs diagrams are booked 166. It seems to be pretty rare to see a 165 now on the line. I believe it used to be the case that one of the Redhill stopper diagram units went on to work Gatwick trains the next day, not sure now.

 

[FenMan]

AFAIK all the North Downs diagrams are booked 166. It seems to be pretty rare to see a 165 now on the line. I believe it used to be the case that one of the Redhill stopper diagram units went on to work Gatwick trains the next day, not sure now.

165s definitely still turn up, I used two of them last Saturday.

 

[infobleep]

I thought first class was only at one end of the train when it's in use. So I sit at the end without the first class noticed.

I do find it odd that Betchworth gets first class services some of the time and other times it doesn't. However places like Byfleet and Newhaw get first class during the weekend peaks but otherwise doesn't.

Whether these stations offer first class tickets is another matter.

 

[TEW]

165s definitely still turn up, I used two of them last Saturday.

They do, but it's certainly not as common as it used to be. I see some of the North Downside services nearly every day, and it's normally 166s on both the fasts and the stoppers.