40% of Scotrail trains late I think I know why

[Gadget88]

I read this in earlier in the year:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/scotrail-trains-late-40-of-the-time-figures-show-1-2919343

ScotRail trains late 40% of the time, figures show

FOUR in ten ScotRail trains fail to arrive on time, in one of the worst performances in Britain, new figures showed today.

• ScotRail has fourth worst figure in Britain for “right-time” performance

• Virgin Trains blamed Network Rail for 75 per cent of their delays.

Only 59.8 per cent of ScotRail trains reached their destination within one minute of schedule in the year to last Saturday, track owner Network Rail has reported.

This the fourth lowest figure among Britain’s 19 train operators, with only cross-Border firms Virgin Trains and CrossCountry, and Southern, worse for so-called “right-time” performance.

ScotRail operates several long-distance routes, but some two-thirds of its passengers travel in the Glasgow area, on relatively short-distance journeys.

A total of 92.9 per cent of ScotRail trains arrived within five minutes over the same period.

Fewer than half of Virgin Trains’ services, which operate between Scotland, Birmingham and London on the west coast main line, arrived within one minute, but more than eight in ten arrived within ten minutes.

The Dunblane service always leaves a minute late when going into Edinburgh. It ALWAYS comes a minute after it's due time.

Also ay Haymarket trains are bad for being late with the board saying it's on time.

I'm sure I heard a conductor say one time his trains are never late is it just some of them prefer to leave late if anybody is running for the train? Why not make the train a minute later when the Dunblane always runs late. Another question with regards to the service into Edinburgh. Why does it always go as slow at Edinburgh Park? Is it the Falkirk High trains are running ahead?

 

[pemma]

Doesn't 'late' actually mean no more than 5 minutes late arriving at the terminus station?

 

[swt_passenger]

Doesn't 'late' actually mean no more than 5 minutes late arriving at the terminus station?

5 or 10 mins depending on service type. This article refers to the new concept of wanting statistics to reflect more than a one minute delay being late.

Passenger Focus ought to know better really...

 

[Matt Taylor]

So are you saying that you have solved the issue of delays on Scotrail on the basis of a casual remark from one conductor based at one of several depots in Scotland?

 

[Gadget88]

So are you saying that you have solved the issue of delays on Scotrail on the basis of a casual remark from one conductor based at one of several depots in Scotland?

When the train leaves depends on the conductor though some of them take a while. One would wonder if this is adding to delays?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The working timetable and the public timetable don't always show the same times. Example: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G93783/2013/11/25/advanced

In this example, at Camelon the public timetable says the train will leave at 0849, but the working timetable says it won't leave until 0851. If you're looking out of the window or waiting at Camelon you'll see the train as two minutes late when, in fact, it is bang on time.

 

[Gadget88]

The working timetable and the public timetable don't always show the same times. Example: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G93783/2013/11/25/advanced

In this example, at Camelon the public timetable says the train will leave at 0849, but the working timetable says it won't leave until 0851. If you're looking out of the window or waiting at Camelon you'll see the train as two minutes late when, in fact, it is bang on time.

Interesting there's PDF timetables but the scotrail site also has journey times which match the time the board says.

Anyway I mean sometimes trains are delayed mid journey even if there's very little to hold them up sometimes it takes a train a while to leave a station.

 

[David Barrett]

Given a lifetime of three score years and ten what's the odd miniute? Then again I gave the mainstream press up yeas ago as my supplier of comics.

 

[The Planner]

In this example, at Camelon the public timetable says the train will leave at 0849, but the working timetable says it won't leave until 0851. If you're looking out of the window or waiting at Camelon you'll see the train as two minutes late when, in fact, it is bang on time.

It doesn't have to wait, it can leave at 0849 if it is ready.

 

[Zoidberg]

I read this in earlier in the year:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/scotrail-trains-late-40-of-the-time-figures-show-1-2919343

...

For the benefit of those with difficulties accessing links, here is an extract from the 4th May 2013 Scotsman article:

FOUR in ten ScotRail trains fail to arrive on time, in one of the worst performances in Britain, new figures showed today.

• ScotRail has fourth worst figure in Britain for “right-time” performance

• Virgin Trains blamed Network Rail for 75 per cent of their delays.

Only 59.8 per cent of ScotRail trains reached their destination within one minute of schedule in the year to last Saturday, track owner Network Rail has reported.

This the fourth lowest figure among Britain’s 19 train operators, with only cross-Border firms Virgin Trains and CrossCountry, and Southern, worse for so-called “right-time” performance.

 

[Butts]

The working timetable and the public timetable don't always show the same times. Example: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G93783/2013/11/25/advanced

In this example, at Camelon the public timetable says the train will leave at 0849, but the working timetable says it won't leave until 0851. If you're looking out of the window or waiting at Camelon you'll see the train as two minutes late when, in fact, it is bang on time.

I sometimes catch the 0722 from Glasgow Queen Street to Falkirk Grahamston where it is due to arrive at 0811.

It often gets held up the line before even getting to Camelon as presumeably it is running to early. It then often hangs about in Camelon for ages before departing for FKG (as it is so early)

Conversely the 1743 from FKG to GLQ is supposed to arrive at 1827, nine times out of ten it is late into Glasgow. I think it has the lowest priority on the whole network. It normally leaves Falkirk on time but is late into Glasgow.

 

[Harlesden]

On the old British transport films, the locomotive drivers seem very anxious to make up any time lost early in the journey.
I believe this is actively discouraged by today's rail management who really don't seem to care how many passengers are inconvenienced.
On one recent EC service 08:30 King's Cross-Newcastle (11:42), we were 12 down leaving Peterborough and as we left the following station, Newark Northgate and the guard/conductor was reciting all the calling points and giving the arrival time at Newcastle as 11:54 (12 minutes later than the scheduled arrival time). The train was 12 down and would remain 12 down for the remainder of the journey - despite there being close to two hours to make back a little of that 12 minutes

 

[The Planner]

Unless they had a WTT print of the schedule there is no way they could calculate how much they could potentially make up, and even that would be only on any engineering recovery allowance. Perception is better if they keep the delay at 12 and anything that is made up is a bonus.

 

[route:oxford]

The Dunblane service always leaves a minute late when going into Edinburgh. It ALWAYS comes a minute after it's due time.

On the occasions that I've been waiting for a Dunblane train at Stirling, I cannot recall that service arriving at Stirling on or before the displayed departure time.

 

[reb0118]

It doesn't have to wait, it can leave at 0849 if it is ready.

I agree with you but often my driver will not leave until the WTT time as shown on his diagram. Then we wonder why we are late at Falkirk Grahamston [FKG].

The discrepancy with the times at Camelon [CMO] is due to TSR/ENG/PTH allowances between Larbert & Carmuirs Jns. ~ I would much prefer the slack to be between CMO & FKG - this would at least give extra dwell time at a busy station.

 

[Butts]

I agree with you but often my driver will not leave until the WTT time as shown on his diagram. Then we wonder why we are late at Falkirk Grahamston [FKG].The discrepancy with the times at Camelon [CMO] is due to TSR/ENG/PTH allowances between Larbert & Carmuirs Jns. ~ I would much prefer the slack to be between CMO & FKG - this would at least give extra dwell time at a busy station.

Normally when I'm waiting to board - outrageous

 

[Tetchytyke]

It doesn't have to wait, it can leave at 0849 if it is ready.

Indeed it can, my point was that if it arrives and departs at 0851 the passenger will see it as two minutes late despite the fact it isn't.

The train was 12 down and would remain 12 down for the remainder of the journey - despite there being close to two hours to make back a little of that 12 minutes

It depends on what is in front of it and what pathing allowances there are.

On some of the EC services (especially the xx00 "fast" departures) the timetable is so tight that the train won't make up time if it gets delayed. The timetable is timed at the train running pretty much as fast as it can. A driver can't make the train go any faster than it is permitted to.

On the ECML between Peterborough and Doncaster, it also depends what is in front of the train. If the delay means it's stuck behind a train calling at Grantham and Newark the delay will get bigger because it also has to stop. I've seen the xx00 "fast" train lose 30 minutes between London and York before, for this very reason.

 

[mfc3024]

The working timetable and the public timetable don't always show the same times. Example: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G93783/2013/11/25/advanced

In this example, at Camelon the public timetable says the train will leave at 0849, but the working timetable says it won't leave until 0851. If you're looking out of the window or waiting at Camelon you'll see the train as two minutes late when, in fact, it is bang on time.

So, we have the following:

- two timetables (working and public);
- a train is not late if within five minutes, or ten minutes on some routes;
- there are multiple tickets options available but you can only buy certain tickets at certain times;
- platform display boards state trains have arrived when no train has actually arrived at the platform;
-train information on display boards differ from those on internet, which can differ from mobile phone apps and staff in stations don't often know what is happening as decisions and announcements are made centrally.

It's no wonder why passengers get confused!!!

 

[samuelmorris]

“Categorising a train as late when it arrives just over a minute after its scheduled time on an intercity journey of several hundred miles is not a useful exercise or one with much relevance to passengers.

“It would be unreasonable to expect a car journey or flight lasting several hours to arrive within a minute of schedule and it is equally unrealistic for train travel.

A little pedantic surely? I mean it's not as if car journeys are timetabled. Flights fair enough, but we air passengers tend not to have the same requirements as rail passengers. For a start, passport control & baggage reclaim cause huge variations in the actual vs. expected time it takes to arrive at your destination. The only facsimile I can think of for that by rail is the crush through the ticket barriers.
It's all very well saying it's unreasonable to expect sub-1 minute delays, but if you have a journey involving several trains dependent on the previous one arriving on time, that 3 minute delay registering as 'on time' could potentially become a much bigger one. I welcome the RT standard, though I do agree the 5-minute should also be kept, if explained as such. 'On time' being either 5 or 10 minutes is a bit underhand if they don't publically disclose which value is being used for your TOC clearly.

 

[170401]

The Dunblane service always leaves a minute late when going into Edinburgh. It ALWAYS comes a minute after it's due time.

Also ay Haymarket trains are bad for being late with the board saying it's on time.

I'm sure I heard a conductor say one time his trains are never late is it just some of them prefer to leave late if anybody is running for the train? Why not make the train a minute later when the Dunblane always runs late. Another question with regards to the service into Edinburgh. Why does it always go as slow at Edinburgh Park? Is it the Falkirk High trains are running ahead?

Dunblane services heading towards Edinburgh run behind services from the Bathgate line. Ironically if the Dunblane services leaves Linlithgow sharp and the driver proceeds at line speed it will get slowed or stopped at Newbridge causing a late arrival at Edinburgh park. If, however, the crew are on the ball they will leave Linlithgow at the WTT time (07½ and 37½, note the half minutes) and take it easy to Newbridge, if the Bathgates on time this gives a clear run and an ontime arrival at Edinburgh park. Unfortunately not too many crews are on the ball these days.

A similar situatation exists with Glasgow - Falkirk Grahamston services being held for Aberdeens at Greenhill lower jn.

 

[scotraildriver]

The DAS system being installed will help with this. I was involved in trials and it was good at advising a lower speed which stops you catching the train in front but still arrive on time. So, if working from Glasgow to Edinburgh instead of bombing along at 100 and catching the Dunblane at Edinburgh park and getting yellows all the way to Haymarket, it advises a speed of 80 and then you get a slower, but clear run into Haymarket. Same time arrival. I have to say I though it worked very well, after being somewhat cynical. More and more drivers will be using it now its been agreed on.

 

[kipper]

It doesn't have to wait, it can leave at 0849 if it is ready.

Train Crews operate trains using (working time table), if departure time is 0851 then that is the time the train departs, 0849 is two minutes early

 

[The Planner]

Certainly doesn't work that way on the WCML....

 

[170401]

The DAS system being installed will help with this. I was involved in trials and it was good at advising a lower speed which stops you catching the train in front but still arrive on time. So, if working from Glasgow to Edinburgh instead of bombing along at 100 and catching the Dunblane at Edinburgh park and getting yellows all the way to Haymarket, it advises a speed of 80 and then you get a slower, but clear run into Haymarket. Same time arrival. I have to say I though it worked very well, after being somewhat cynical. More and more drivers will be using it now its been agreed on.

This is good news, admittedly I'm not that up to speed on DAS but it sounds like it will bring some real benefits.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Train Crews operate trains using (working time table), if departure time is 0851 then that is the time the train departs, 0849 is two minutes early

Actually it's not, the working timetable states that the advertised times should be followed where practicable. If train crews were trained properly these days they would know that.