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4O05, 07:15 Birch Coppice Freightliner to Southampton M.C.T derailed at Eastleigh (28/01)

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DarloRich

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Although we have new legislation, comparing to 50 years ago is partly reasonable, but is not whole excuse.

People can be trained as crane drivers and lifting riggers, lifting does not need to be pre-planned. There is nothing to stop a crane being sent to assist. What you cannot do anymore is have an untrained person choosing which chain to attach and where, a trained person can be on site and appraise as required before each lift. The notion the paperwork has to be signed off in an office before they go out is false.

Yes it would cost money having people trained for roles they may rarely perform, but how many millions are being wasted every hour the line is blocked.
There is a sensible balance, and it appears there is insufficient trained staff for reasonable recovery speed.

Its not even a contractual or accounting thing. The Railways already have hundreds of forms/dockets available, any in theory in an emergency one can be marked and costs charged to contingency fund. Its not like the restoration wont ever be sanctioned on a busy main line. Nothing to stop this contingency subsequently being recharged/reapportioned in slow time later. I'm not aware of anything that says deliberately incur more costs and create further delays whilst waiting for paperwork to be signed off in case someone charges a bit of overtime in an emergency situation. If I have got this wrong, happy to be corrected.

There is nothing to stop a crane being sent to assist. However lifting operations have to be planned on a case by case basis by a competent person. I suspect this will be classed as a complex lift and so cant be pre planed. Something like using a forklift in a warehouse can be as it is repeatable work in the same environment every day. The purpose of the plan is to address the foreseeable risks involved in the procedure, detail the people and resources required for the safe completion of task, clearly set out each step involved in the operation and assign each to a person with enough knowledge and expertise to perform the task safely and competently.

The required inspection paperwork absolutely does need to be signed off and stored "in the office" before the crane leaves it's base.

I agree more staff would be helpful but we have to acknowledge the cost of providing that coverage. It Isn't cheap

I don't understand the point about dockets and forms. The money will get sorted out, especially in an emergency.
 
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theironroad

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Freightliner drivers are based at Eastleigh. Most of the drivers live around Eastleigh and for those who don't Eastleigh has a good train service and easy staff car parking, whereas Redbridge only has the Romsey shuttle and a miles walk up the sidings.
For many years shuttle drivers have been used between MCT and Eastleigh which meant the drivers working north from Eastleigh could get to Saltley or Crewe in a single shift, with spare time in the duty. The shunt drivers also did the shunting around MCT. With 25 to 30 wagon trains every train needs at least one shunt when being unloaded and reloaded in a 20 wagon crane area.

With the normal level of road congestion around Southampton, Eastleigh to Southampton MCT would take about 30 to 40 minutes by road between 0700 and about 2000. About 5 to 10 minutes less overnight. ( Train running time is about 20 minutes Eastleigh to Maritime CT protecting signal.)
How can I be certain? My wife commutes by car between home north of Eastleigh and her office near Redbridge. About 30 minutes is normal, but last week it took 1 hour 15 minutes due to one brake down on the M271 and problems at Dock gate 20 causing traffic to block back onto the A35 and M271.

Iirc, some plans were mooted a few years back about moving the crew depot to the maritime but they seemed to have been dropped, probably in part of of having to pay for taxis for displaced staff and as you say the dire traffic issues.

Unfortunately, crew changes on the up and down do cause quite a few delays to other trains, one of the reasons (capacity also) the slow line from the airport to Eastleigh was put in a few years ago.

On the down, a useful feature would be to have a staff halt hop up just London side of the home signal on the down slow. This would allow the train to be held there while crew change and both platforms down platforms would still be available for passneger trains. Could be a relatively cheap option.

Another feature that would help, but far more expensive and probabky not technically feasible would be a higher turnout speed from DS back to DF as a loaded container train having to dawdle over the current 15mph crossing isn't great either. A 30 or 40 turnout would help especially if combined with a staff halt.
 

pompeyfan

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The idea of a hop up on the DS near the ground frame cabin is a really good one considering very little is actually booked to use the DS in passenger service. Putting in a hop up and associated walking routes wouldn’t be prohibitive, although the same set of points used by the same train would have been used so the accident would have still happened.
 

theironroad

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The idea of a hop up on the DS near the ground frame cabin is a really good one considering very little is actually booked to use the DS in passenger service. Putting in a hop up and associated walking routes wouldn’t be prohibitive, although the same set of points used by the same train would have been used so the accident would have still happened.

Obviously I don't know the cause of the accident and we'll all have to wait for the RAIB.

Although possibly slightly OT, my hop up/speed rise idea is a more long term thing to overcome the regular delays that passneger trains booked to stop at ESL encounter die to crew change.
 

Far north 37

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There is nothing to stop a crane being sent to assist. However lifting operations have to be planned on a case by case basis by a competent person. I suspect this will be classed as a complex lift and so cant be pre planed. Something like using a forklift in a warehouse can be as it is repeatable work in the same environment every day. The purpose of the plan is to address the foreseeable risks involved in the procedure, detail the people and resources required for the safe completion of task, clearly set out each step involved in the operation and assign each to a person with enough knowledge and expertise to perform the task safely and competently.

The required inspection paperwork absolutely does need to be signed off and stored "in the office" before the crane leaves it's base.

I agree more staff would be helpful but we have to acknowledge the cost of providing that coverage. It Isn't cheap

I don't understand the point about dockets and forms. The money will get sorted out, especially in an emergency.
Person who organises the lift will have to be loler trained and will devise a lift plan deciding what type of equipment to be used appropriate chains slings and shackles etc, and where they will be attached.
 

Brush 4

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So, are there no breakdown trains on the Southern anymore? Eastleigh, Wimbledon and Hither green had one each, more in steam days. They were capable of lifting locos and stock. Is Leeds the only one now?
 

Far north 37

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So, are there no breakdown trains on the Southern anymore? Eastleigh, Wimbledon and Hither green had one each, more in steam days. They were capable of lifting locos and stock. Is Leeds the only one now?
Db cargo in charge of all breakdowns now they have a team at millerhill didcot and one somewhere in northern england think it might be wigan but not totally sure.
 

swt_passenger

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The current summary from Network Rail on NRES at the time of this post, confirms temporary track, presumably plain lining the down fast?

Network Rail now expect the majority of services to run from Monday morning, but continue to do everything possible to open the railway sooner. They are dealing with a complex situation involving the derailment of six 52 tonne wagons.

Following the derailment there is extensive damage to the track and engineers are working around the clock to get the railway back open as quickly and as safely as possible. To do this they are installing temporary track and will make alterations to the signalling and power supply as the full repair will take more time.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/241296.aspx
 

pompeyfan

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The current summary from Network Rail on NRES at the time of this post, confirms temporary track, presumably plain lining the down fast?

yep that’s the plan, it’s debatable whether the Portsmouth line will be open, but certainly no trains will be able to call at ESL then head towards SOA. Temporary crew changes at parkway for freight liner perhaps?
 

Dunfanaghy Rd

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Each individual container should be loaded such that the weight is distributed as evenly as possible, particularly laterally. If uniform distribution is not possible, then the second preference is having the heaviest weight arranged along the longitudinal centre line. This is the responsibility of the person/organisation putting the goods in the container. IIRC the freight operator has little to no control over this, beyond the contractual right to reject carriage of containers that are inappropriately packed.
The gross (and probably net) weight of each individual container is known to the freight operator, who is responsible for arranging the containers on the train in the optimum configuration without overloading any vehicle or axle. I don't know what is optimum, but my recollection of various RAIB reports is that there are several factors to consider, including the relative position of loaded and empty wagons in a consist as this can make a significant difference to wind loadings.

The gross weight of each container is declared by the shipper. The rail haulier has to take their word for it, unless it proves impossible to lift (yes, that did happen). Since the MSC Napoli stranding (which allowed MAIB to weigh the deck cargo boxes and compare to the loading computer) it has become the rule in the shipping world that the container's weight is taken by the port's kit, and forwarded with the container. Their concern was, obviously, ship stability. (Napoli was carrying 300 tons more deck cargo than was declared.)
Which leaves our export traffic (such as 4O05) as a problem, the internationally required checks are done after the box leaves the train. The truth is that shippers (or their customers) lie (allegedly). Answers on a postcard, please.
Pat
 

swt_passenger

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yep that’s the plan, it’s debatable whether the Portsmouth line will be open, but certainly no trains will be able to call at ESL then head towards SOA. Temporary crew changes at parkway for freight liner perhaps?

And then there’s the problem of up direction access to East Yard from the Southampton direction, which requires crossing over near Campbell Rd Bridge for access to the reversible down slow through either of P2 or P3?

Then what about access to the works?

South access to the TRSMD is obviously working for XC, but is it realistic for the medium term?

Meanwhile a post on wnxx suggests the plain lining is to allow for special to location S&C to be built up, and it won’t be quick...
 
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DarloRich

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Person who organises the lift will have to be loler trained and will devise a lift plan deciding what type of equipment to be used appropriate chains slings and shackles etc, and where they will be attached.

Absolutely - my point is that in them olden days you could ( almost) just rock up and start lifting. Now you need a proper plan, proper competency, proper certification of safe lifting weights, proper HSE etc etc. You also, often, need a tandem lift which you didn't in the past because you could do things you would never be allowed now.

Db cargo in charge of all breakdowns now they have a team at millerhill didcot and one somewhere in northern england think it might be wigan but not totally sure.

Correct. Also Didcot I think
 

Chris M

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The gross weight of each container is declared by the shipper. The rail haulier has to take their word for it, unless it proves impossible to lift (yes, that did happen). Since the MSC Napoli stranding (which allowed MAIB to weigh the deck cargo boxes and compare to the loading computer) it has become the rule in the shipping world that the container's weight is taken by the port's kit, and forwarded with the container. Their concern was, obviously, ship stability. (Napoli was carrying 300 tons more deck cargo than was declared.)
Which leaves our export traffic (such as 4O05) as a problem, the internationally required checks are done after the box leaves the train. The truth is that shippers (or their customers) lie (allegedly). Answers on a postcard, please.
Pat
Is there a reason the containers can't be weighed when it arrives at the rail depot? I'm sure a contract could be written such that any container found to be a different weight to that declared (outside a small but reasonable tolerance) would be refused carriage with no refund. If they want the product shipped they have to book it again at full price for the actual weight or collect it from the depot at their own cost. That would soon stop weights being wrongly declared.
 

Far north 37

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Absolutely - my point is that in them olden days you could ( almost) just rock up and start lifting. Now you need a proper plan, proper competency, proper certification of safe lifting weights, proper HSE etc etc. You also, often, need a tandem lift which you didn't in the past because you could do things you would never be allowed now.



Correct. Also Didcot I think
yes all equipment has to be certified and inspected every 6 months and tagged as well things much more stricter nowadays as you say.

I mentioned didcot with that millerhill and wigan leaves three depots covering the whole of the uk now.
 

Edders23

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At ports they charge the container owners about £100 for weighing the container I believe so I presume if it isn't compulsory that is a cost shippers would rather avoid
 

hwl

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So, are there no breakdown trains on the Southern anymore? Eastleigh, Wimbledon and Hither green had one each, more in steam days. They were capable of lifting locos and stock. Is Leeds the only one now?
The Leeds reference was to the wheel skate need for one wagon.
The first few wagons on that train have comparatively small wheels (compared to passengers stock / heavy haul freight) which probably necessitates a different design of wheel skate to most trains hence there won't be many in the country...
 

Far north 37

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The Leeds reference was to the wheel skate need for one wagon.
The first few wagons on that train have comparatively small wheels (compared to passengers stock / heavy haul freight) which probably necessitates a different design of wheel skate to most trains hence there won't be many in the country...
And with leeds midland road being freightliners main depot in the uk its most likely where such things are kept.
 

edwin_m

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So, are there no breakdown trains on the Southern anymore? Eastleigh, Wimbledon and Hither green had one each, more in steam days. They were capable of lifting locos and stock. Is Leeds the only one now?
In those days there would have been a derailment, at a guess, about once a week somewhere on the Southern. Most of them would have been shunting accidents in yards, not regarded as serious and unlikely to have been investigated by HMRI unless there was a more serious consequence such as a passenger train hitting the debris. So just counting derailments on Railways Archive then versus now won't give a true picture. Yard shunting is now massively less, what still happens is no doubt done with much more regard to safety, and the far fewer wagons that are used these days are probably designed and maintained more rigorously for heavy loads and higher speeds*. These days, if there were still that many breakdown trains, it's unlikely that the staff involved would get enough practice on real derailments to remain competent without having to go out and do exercises on simulated ones.

*There have been accidents caused by poor maintenance of modern freight wagons, but I suspect there were 4-wheelers in the steam age that went for years on end without being touched!
Is there a reason the containers can't be weighed when it arrives at the rail depot? I'm sure a contract could be written such that any container found to be a different weight to that declared (outside a small but reasonable tolerance) would be refused carriage with no refund. If they want the product shipped they have to book it again at full price for the actual weight or collect it from the depot at their own cost. That would soon stop weights being wrongly declared.
I imagine it's pretty straightforward to fit some sort of load cell to the crane so the container is weighed. But the ones at the ports probably just give a total weight, as the container is small compared to the ship so they aren't too bothered if it's not loaded evenly. On the railway uneven loading is probably a bigger hazard than excessive loading, so the crane would have to measure the lifting force separately at each corner.

At ports they charge the container owners about £100 for weighing the container I believe so I presume if it isn't compulsory that is a cost shippers would rather avoid
If it's as I suggested above I would think the actual cost of weighing is negligible. The fee may be more about the paperwork of transmitting the weight to the customer, plus the risk that the weight might turn out to be different from what was assumed. If it turns out lighter then maybe another container was turned away unnecessarily, and if it's heavier then in the worst case the loading plan might have to be changed and multiple containers re-stacked.
 

trainmania100

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What does it mean by temporary track? Stuff that's gonna get dug back up again when they relay the whole track?
 

Put Kettle On

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It will be new track laid in for a temporary period of time .
The S&C ( pointwork ) is site specific . This means it will have to be built for this . It is not readily available off the shelf .
Due to time factor in manufacturing the new S&C unit, a new section of plain line will be installed in place of the damaged section of turnout .
When the new S&C unit is available & ready to install, the plain line section will be removed & the S&C installed .
 

smilerish

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Has anyone worked out exactly which set of points are damaged?

Looking at the photos, it looks to me like the train and wagons passed successfully over the first set from DS (Platform 2) to DM, and it might 'only' be the set of points between the DS, DF and Platform 3 that are damaged.

Otherwise, if the damage points are replaced with plain line, wouldn't that mean Platform 2 is out of action until the points can be repaired?
 

hwl

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S&C? If you mean "points", say "points".
but points wouldn't include the single slip...
(which the lead bogie of the second wagon effectively overran in the 6foot)
 
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hwl

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Has anyone worked out exactly which set of points are damaged?

Looking at the photos, it looks to me like the train and wagons passed successfully over the first set from DS (Platform 2) to DM, and it might 'only' be the set of points between the DS, DF and Platform 3 that are damaged.

Otherwise, if the damage points are replaced with plain line, wouldn't that mean Platform 2 is out of action until the points can be repaired?
Several (possibly 4 (3points, 1 Single slip)) in different ways and to different extents.

It is worth noting that most of the S&C in the wider area around the station has been replace with standard geometry concrete bearer ones but the 4 in the affected area haven't which suggests custom geometry....
 
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Wychwood93

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The idea of a hop up on the DS near the ground frame cabin is a really good one considering very little is actually booked to use the DS in passenger service. Putting in a hop up and associated walking routes wouldn’t be prohibitive, although the same set of points used by the same train would have been used so the accident would have still happened.
This was raised some 20 or so years ago, IIRC, no takers - one on the US as well, country side of Allbrook. The latter somewhat overtaken by the restoration of Stoneham Junction - former WW2 sidings on the up between Stoneham and the Campbell Road overbridge. Assuming the DF is plain-lined, then the suggestion of crew changes at Parkway is sensible. See what happens.
 

Taunton

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But it isnt just the unjoined up nature of the 21st century railway.

We live in a very different legislation & HSEA environment than we did in 197X. Things that were allowed in the halcyon past are illegal now. Weights ( safe working loads) lifted by cranes are much more tightly controlled than before ... How much do you think having a vast number of geographically based teams on call is going to coast? it isnt one team of 5 men on call per location sat about. It is 2 or 3 teams per location (to offer 24X7 coverage) plus spares and all of their personal and team equipment, plus a base, plus vehicles, plus training, plus pension, plus NI, plus etc etc etc.
As we are discussing the 1974 Bridgwater event in comparison, not one person there was specifically appointed only in case of an incident. They all just came from their regular jobs. And they knew what they were doing (evidently). Local teams dealt with the outer stuff in the first shift, and then Swindon turned up.

The crane driver would have be insulted if you even implied they were close to the SWL of their kit.

You are correct that it is one of the 1,001 unjoined-up items of the current railway, set in motion when Tom Winsor (a lawyer) talked John Major as PM in the 1990s into the notion that railways were much better run by lawyers, with contracts, than by railway personnel.
 

infobleep

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Yes, the batteries were well and truly flat when we were relieved yesterday afternoon.
How long does it take for the batteries to go flat?

Is there a point at which they can say to staff, you no longer need to remain with the train? Is that when the power has finally run out?

When they have an issue in Eastleigh, singling problem in Woking and third rail power supplies issues between Epsom and Wimbledon, all occurring at the same time, as they were earlier today, do Network Rail ever run out of staff to deal with these things? I'm aware also of the engineering works overrun as well but that would have had planned resources. The other 3 were not planned.
 

Put Kettle On

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As we are discussing the 1974 Bridgwater event in comparison

We are discussing a derailment which occurred this week, & not comparing it with anything else, & certainly not one which happened over 45 years ago .
There have been so many changes to working arrangements, procedures, staff levels & availability & almost everything else, any comparison is totally meaningless .
 

38Cto15E

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I assume that there a lot of unhappy customers regarding their containers missing their scheduled sailing?
 
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