4VEP 3417 back on mainline, still fundraising

[nw1]

MBSO ex 7775, which I believe only came to SW in later years,

That was correct, I very distinctly remember units approximately 7761-76 coming over to the SW in around 1985 and then, I think, 7777-79 a little later, though possibly this may have been as late as 1987 and may already have been 3077-79 by then. I seem to remember 7760 coming over on its own, followed by the rest a year (?) or so later.

I've possibly got this wrong but ISTR 7760-76 were from the South Eastern and 7777-79 from the Central. At around the same time, units (approx) 7834-7853 moved over to the South Eastern, alongside native South Eastern units 7854-94. Wonder why they swapped VEPs between divisions like this? A desire for the South Eastern to have the newer units?

Sooner sit in 4 VEP three a side than on networker or electrostars but agree you did have to be careful to assess your companions if only middle seats were left.

I rarely used overcrowded VEPs. One of the trains I could get to school was a 12VEP but the rear-most seating area (the half-carriage behind the first class) was always quiet until my school station.
Likewise the train I got home from school on games days (once a week; half an hour later than normal) was 8VEP but again not overcrowded. It left London between 1600 and 1700 and was the sort of service which could have got away with 6 cars but presumably there were insufficient HAPs for that.

450s of course have the same 3x2 design, they are effectively the next generation VEP. That was one of the things I liked about SWT's choice of replacement stock in 2004; 444s were basically neo-CIGs and 450s neo-VEPs, so you kept a variety of stock and some of the spirit of the (always to me interesting) CIG and VEP mix was kept alive, albeit not quite in the same way as the originals.

 

[Deepgreen]

In all its glory at Waterloo!
(picture shows 4-vep at Waterloo)

Interesting that the country end 73 didn't stay with it/hadn't arrived during its stay. I'd assumed it was T&T throughout.

 

[Tony73E]

It was top and tailed both to and from Waterloo. 73119 (country end) was split off in platform 19 for photo opportunities.

 

[Class15]

Interesting that the country end 73 didn't stay with it/hadn't arrived during its stay. I'd assumed it was T&T throughout.

It was, it was detached to allow for photos.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It did operate passenger services with that livery too.

I should have remembered that - I'm pretty sure I have a photo of it from shortly after it was repainted!!

My feeble excuse is that my photo archive scanning has only reached mid 1998 so far...

 

[1971martin]

That was correct, I very distinctly remember units approximately 7761-76 coming over to the SW in around 1985 and then, I think, 7777-79 a little later, though possibly this may have been as late as 1987 and may already have been 3077-79 by then. I seem to remember 7760 coming over on its own, followed by the rest a year (?) or so later.

I've possibly got this wrong but ISTR 7760-76 were from the South Eastern and 7777-79 from the Central. At around the same time, units (approx) 7834-7853 moved over to the South Eastern, alongside native South Eastern units 7854-94. Wonder why they swapped VEPs between divisions like this? A desire for the South Eastern to have the newer units?



I rarely used overcrowded VEPs. One of the trains I could get to school was a 12VEP but the rear-most seating area (the half-carriage behind the first class) was always quiet until my school station.
Likewise the train I got home from school on games days (once a week; half an hour later than normal) was 8VEP but again not overcrowded. It left London between 1600 and 1700 and was the sort of service which could have got away with 6 cars but presumably there were insufficient HAPs for that.

450s of course have the same 3x2 design, they are effectively the next generation VEP. That was one of the things I liked about SWT's choice of replacement stock in 2004; 444s were basically neo-CIGs and 450s neo-VEPs, so you kept a variety of stock and some of the spirit of the (always to me interesting) CIG and VEP mix was kept alive, albeit not quite in the same way as the originals.

I remember the SED had some 77xx in the early 1980s but by 1986 had lost these and acquired several units from 7830ish upwards.

Visited Chart Leacon depot open day on 7th June 1986, travelled in on 7845 with help from 73134. This was a few days before the launch of Network SouthEast. Think 7850 was the first Vep in NSE colours.

Have just consulted my combined volumes

1985 SWD 7701-7720, 7734-7748 (BM) 7749-7760 (FR) 7813-7853 (WD)
SED 7761-7782, 7854-7872, 7880-7894 (RE)
SCD 7721-7733, 7783-7812, 7873-7879 (BI)

1986 SWD 7700,7749-7762 (FR) 7701-7720,7734-7748 (BM),7763-7776,7813-7837 (WD)
SED 7838-7894 (RE)
SCD 7721-7733,7777-7812 (BI)

1987 SWD 3000,3049-3060 (FR) 3001-3020,3034-3048 (BM) 3061-3079,3113-3132 (WD)
SED 3133-3194 (RE)
SCD 3021-3033, 3080-3112 ((BI)

1988 SWD 3001-3020,3034-3048 (BM) 3049-3058 (FR) 3059-3080,3113-3130 (WD)
SED 3131-3194 (RE)
SCD 3000,3021-3033,3080-3112 (BI)

1989 Refurbishment now under way. Will just show the higher numbered unrefurbs
SCD 3134-3140 (BI)
SWD 3141-3144 (WD) 3145-3147 (BM)
SED 3148-3167,3169-3194 (RE)

Refurbs SED 3421-3424,3445-3454 (RE)
SWD 3425-3429 (BM) 3430-3434 (WD) 3455-3459 (FR)
SCD 3435-3444) (BI)

 

[nw1]

I remember the SED had some 77xx in the early 1980s but by 1986 had lost these and acquired several units from 7830ish upwards.

Visited Chart Leacon depot open day on 7th June 1986, travelled in on 7845 with help from 73134. This was a few days before the launch of Network SouthEast. Think 7850 was the first Vep in NSE colours.

Have just consulted my combined volumes

1985 SWD 7701-7720, 7734-7748 (BM) 7749-7760 (FR) 7813-7853 (WD)
SED 7761-7782, 7854-7872, 7880-7894 (RE)
SCD 7721-7733, 7783-7812, 7873-7879 (BI)

1986 SWD 7700,7749-7762 (FR) 7701-7720,7734-7748 (BM),7763-7776,7813-7837 (WD)
SED 7838-7894 (RE)
SCD 7721-7733,7777-7812 (BI)

1987 SWD 3000,3049-3060 (FR) 3001-3020,3034-3048 (BM) 3061-3079,3113-3132 (WD)
SED 3133-3194 (RE)
SCD 3021-3033, 3080-3112 ((BI)

1988 SWD 3001-3020,3034-3048 (BM) 3049-3058 (FR) 3059-3080,3113-3130 (WD)
SED 3131-3194 (RE)
SCD 3000,3021-3033,3080-3112 (BI)

1989 Refurbishment now under way. Will just show the higher numbered unrefurbs
SCD 3134-3140 (BI)
SWD 3141-3144 (WD) 3145-3147 (BM)
SED 3148-3167,3169-3194 (RE)

Refurbs SED 3421-3424,3445-3454 (RE)
SWD 3425-3429 (BM) 3430-3434 (WD) 3455-3459 (FR)
SCD 3435-3444) (BI)

Thanks for confirming those, much as I remember though the transfers of 7763-76 happened about a year later? Though it depends on what part of the year your 1985 list is from: most of my observations on the SWD were in July/August.

Interesting 7873-79 were on the Central for a while; I visited Brighton in Oct 1985 and Clapham Junction in Dec 1985 and didn't see any of that batch on either trip. Again possible they got transferred for the May timetable change.

I do remember seeing 7850 in NSE colours in, I think, early July 1986 working a Guildford-Ascot service, even though it looked like it belonged to the SED by then. Perhaps it did a "tour" of the Southern as it was the only NSE unit at that time?

Finally another oddity I distinctly remember is 7827 (a SW unit) on a London Bridge-Oxted in Oct 1987. That stands out in my memory because most VEPs were renumbered in the 3001-3194 series by then.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

A few personal observations of some units in question from those years;

7766 noted on Farnham depot on 4-5-87.
7775 noted at Woking on 1-3-87.
7777 noted at Bournemouth Central on 25-4-87.
7778 noted at St. Johns (Woking) on 28-6-86.

 

[Trackman]

Great job, Orange curtains in First to boot.

 

[1971martin]

Thanks for confirming those, much as I remember though the transfers of 7763-76 happened about a year later? Though it depends on what part of the year your 1985 list is from: most of my observations on the SWD were in July/August.

Interesting 7873-79 were on the Central for a while; I visited Brighton in Oct 1985 and Clapham Junction in Dec 1985 and didn't see any of that batch on either trip. Again possible they got transferred for the May timetable change.

I do remember seeing 7850 in NSE colours in, I think, early July 1986 working a Guildford-Ascot service, even though it looked like it belonged to the SED by then. Perhaps it did a "tour" of the Southern as it was the only NSE unit at that time?

Finally another oddity I distinctly remember is 7827 (a SW unit) on a London Bridge-Oxted in Oct 1987. That stands out in my memory because most VEPs were renumbered in the 3001-3194 series by then.

Think the combined volumes came out slightly later than the individual books on locos/DMUs/EMUs/Coaches so probably February, at the absolute latest March, but certainly before the May timetable changes.

Agreed that the use of 7873-7879 from Brighton is unusual. I'd long associated the high numbers with Kent and didnt think they had worked elsewhere.

Unfortunately I didn't record units travelled on locally back then, only what I saw.

 

[nw1]

Think the combined volumes came out slightly later than the individual books on locos/DMUs/EMUs/Coaches so probably February, at the absolute latest March, but certainly before the May timetable changes.

Agreed that the use of 7873-7879 from Brighton is unusual. I'd long associated the high numbers with Kent and didnt think they had worked elsewhere.

Unfortunately I didn't record units travelled on locally back then, only what I saw.

Thanks. I didn't actually record the units, but I just have memories of what units were about and where.

 

[nlogax]

I have happy memories of sitting on VEPs between Bournemouth and Southampton during the NSE heydays. Comfy & toasty warm inside while outside the frozen New Forest scooted by the misted-up windows. Also once took a Sunday service from Bournemouth to Waterloo with engineering work occupying the fast lines north of Basingstoke. Back then a fair amount of the slow lines were jointed track.. marvellous stuff.

Glad VEPs and other slammers finally went and they probably should have gone far, far sooner but I'm very glad 3417 is still around and so beautifully maintained.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I have happy memories of sitting on VEPs

Ditto, albeit nearer the 'smoke'. They may have been known as 4-Drafties by some (public), but cab (and van) heaters were second to none in winter. Old school basic stuff, although external cab doors often caused (sticking) problems, and would take much abuse of a steel toe capped boot to open them at times (yes, guilty as charged on one or two occasions!). Was still far simpler than having to plug a unit in to a laptop (don't get me started.....)

 

[75A]

I used to hate them with a vengence on a cold frosty morning going home on the Coastway West after a night shift, 4 stops o a good day 6 on a bad. You'd gurantee that someone would open your door, either in or out, at every one. Give me a HAP everytime, much cosier

 

[Goldfish62]

Wonderful achievement, just a shame it's not a (usable) 4CIG.

The five a side VEP's were exquisitely uncomfortable - you always seemed to be sitting next to an "out of gauge" passenger - would anyone really want a railtour in such cramped conditions?

WAO

The problem with them was the gangway armrest, which effectively turned them into 1.5 + 2.5 seating, with the leg of the poor soul sat at the window seat jammed against the ineffective draft excluder.

Having said that it would be wonderful to go on a railtour on it.

 

[bramling]

I have happy memories of sitting on VEPs between Bournemouth and Southampton during the NSE heydays. Comfy & toasty warm inside while outside the frozen New Forest scooted by the misted-up windows. Also once took a Sunday service from Bournemouth to Waterloo with engineering work occupying the fast lines north of Basingstoke. Back then a fair amount of the slow lines were jointed track.. marvellous stuff.

Glad VEPs and other slammers finally went and they probably should have gone far, far sooner but I'm very glad 3417 is still around and so beautifully maintained.

If anything some of the CIG and VEP units went a bit prematurely based on a 40-year life, same goes for the class 312 fleet. It’s more the case that they were built to a rather outdated design. It’s quite sobering to reflect upon the fact that the last of these units weren’t massively older than the class 313s, which only finished last year.

 

[yorksrob]

It’s quite sobering to reflect upon the fact that the last of these units weren’t massively older than the class 313s, which only finished last year.

They were certainly a darn sight more comfortable, that's for sure.

 

[nw1]

I have happy memories of sitting on VEPs between Bournemouth and Southampton during the NSE heydays. Comfy & toasty warm inside while outside the frozen New Forest scooted by the misted-up windows. Also once took a Sunday service from Bournemouth to Waterloo with engineering work occupying the fast lines north of Basingstoke. Back then a fair amount of the slow lines were jointed track.. marvellous stuff.

Glad VEPs and other slammers finally went and they probably should have gone far, far sooner but I'm very glad 3417 is still around and so beautifully maintained.

Not so sure about that. VEPs and most CIGs date from 1967-74 so withdrawing them "far, far sooner" than 2004 (which implies 10 or more years before?) would have meant they would have lasted considerably less than 35 years and the newest examples perhaps not even 20.

As for me, well I grew up with CIGs and VEPs, they were my transport to school, so I was definitely sad to see them go.

If anything some of the CIG and VEP units went a bit prematurely based on a 40-year life, same goes for the class 312 fleet. It’s more the case that they were built to a rather outdated design. It’s quite sobering to reflect upon the fact that the last of these units weren’t massively older than the class 313s, which only finished last year.

The 312s notably so, the newest examples were apparently introduced as late as 1978. Thus they should have been good until around 2013-18.

 

[nlogax]

Not so sure about that. VEPs and most CIGs date from 1967-74 so withdrawing them "far, far sooner" than 2004 (which implies 10 or more years before?) would have meant they would have lasted considerably less than 35 years and the newest examples perhaps not even 20.

The Clapham disaster should really have seen them off, plus all other Mk1 EMUs and stock. Obviously no money tree available to BR and it takes time to build and replace but their ongoing existence well into the 2000s was far later than many envisaged.

 

[nw1]

Ditto, albeit nearer the 'smoke'. They may have been known as 4-Drafties by some (public), but cab (and van) heaters were second to none in winter. Old school basic stuff, although external cab doors often caused (sticking) problems, and would take much abuse of a steel toe capped boot to open them at times (yes, guilty as charged on one or two occasions!). Was still far simpler than having to plug a unit in to a laptop (don't get me started.....)

Photo (of VEPs at Bournemouth) obviously from 1986 or 1987.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Photo (of VEPs at Bournemouth) obviously from 1986 or 1987.

Jan '87.

The Clapham disaster should really have seen them off

I think that was a watershed moment in a way. A colleague was in the rear coach of the 8 Vep standing at the errant signal. Survived and is still with us today, despite the coach being thrown up the embankment wall by the impact of the Rep, in which a friend of another colleague was not so lucky. I am thankful I was on the Salisbury UP, a few trains behind.

The problem with them was the gangway armrest,

You are so right...whenever I use to hear complaints about the 3 seater on 450's, those concerned must have never ridden on VEP's where there was a physical constraint. As someone who's travelling involved types from SUB's onwards, and more often than not meant standing or a middle seat on a 450 in more recent times, the 'problem' with the middle seat was more often than not, the attitude of those already occupying the window and gangway seats. Whilst the former in fairness couldn't move much other than closing their legs, the occupant of the gangway seat on a 450 could shift a tad/did have the option of sitting in such a manner that would allow someone to occupy the middle seat. Not ideal I accept, but not impossible either, but some were very religious in guarding their 'position' and would refuse to compromise. Depending on my mood on any given day, I would on occasion, after asking to be allowed to use the middle seat, and being met with no response, I would just plonk my axxx down and be damned.

 

[nw1]

Jan '87.

OK thanks. The mix of NSE and blue and grey, and the original number (7759) narrowed it down to a very small time-frame.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

and the original number (7759)

Likewise my small list earlier (post #38) all noted as listed (number wise), 7778 in particular, given the list provided by 1971martin. When I photographed it from a certain footbridge that is presently missing, it was still in near original physical appearance format, large van, all compo's 1st class and still B/G livery.

 

[sh24]

Lovely to see this. Preservation can often focus on the most glamorous things (Flying Scotsman etc) and it's lovely to see something that was part of millions of peoples daily lives being preserved. Excited to see, and ride, under it's own 3rd rail power in the future.

 

[Deepgreen]

Complete trivia but I am wondering why the posed unit showed headcode 88 rather than, say, 90 to represent the birthday. Was there another significance to 88 here?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Complete trivia but I am wondering why the posed unit showed headcode 88

Edited.

The mix of NSE and blue and grey, and the original number (7759) narrowed it down to a very small time-frame.

The B/G unit on the adjacent road is 7822, but I neglected to note the unit in NSE colours. I think the purpose of the depot visit may have been to evaluate accurate timings for shunt moves from arrival time on 6 road from Branksome, driver change, then forward through washers, and back in to berthing sidings and stable (the move 7759 is in process of making). This may have been in connection with the impending introduction of the 442's, but to be honest I can't confirm/remember now!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Complete trivia but I am wondering why the posed unit showed headcode 88 rather than, say, 90 to represent the birthday. Was there another significance to 88 here?

Someone said it was actually Mr Pettitt's 88th birthday rather than his 90th as had been initially publicised.

Does anyone know for sure?

 

[Invincible]

The write up to this video (found on a google search) made by someone who was there
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EAbc3y2VCA
says "The occasion was to celebrate the 88th birthday of Gordon Pettitt"

 

[Zamracene749]

There weren't many third rail units in the North East........

Go on then, I'll take the bait Apart from the 100 or so NER units, that were replaced by 2 EPB units, the last going around 1967 on the Tyneside lines? I believe there's an ex Tyneside 2EPB surviving somewhere still?

 

[DarloRich]

Apart from the 100 or so NER units, that were replaced by 2 EPB units, the last going around 1967 on the Tyneside lines? I believe there's an ex Tyneside 2EPB surviving somewhere still?

that is a bit before my time