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5 Class 350s Flood Damaged

AJDesiro

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Just heard an announcement on the 15:00 Milton Keynes-Euston service where the guard was apologising about it being short formed to 4 carriages, stating that 14 trains had been damaged by the flooding at Northampton and couldn’t run in service.

Does anyone know the extent of the damage (it must be pretty bad), and, more importantly, how long it may take for them to return to service. As an LNR local, this is going to be a fun December…

I also believe that around 16 730/0s are not in service today, could it be possible that we see a few moved down south to displace those 350s onto longer distance services, or is it a case of sucking it up?

Since this thread was originally created, it has come to light that 5 class 350s are out of use, not 14.
 
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DaveyJones

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Given how bad the flooding at Northampton was, and that the signal Berths showed "8 Car in 3 Platforms and Full in another, I'm not surprised, but hard to gauge the damage from that alone
 

317 forever

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Some more 730s may need to come into service early to replace them, at least while the 350s are being dried out and cleaned.
 

Class 317

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I really think this shows a lack of planning on their part as they weather and flooding in the area was forecast in advance far enough ahead that there should have been time to move them somewhere else as a temporary measure.

I understand staff might not have been available at the last minute but it should h been possible to avoid this issue.
 

Mollman

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Can any of the withdrawn 350/2s be pressed back into service?
 

Pompey00

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Sure it Shouldn’t of been sent out in the first place if the railway had flooded due to the damage it can cause
 
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Merle Haggard

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The usual overnight storage is 12 cars in each of the two Riverside sidings and in platform 4 and 5, and 8 in platform 3. This makes 14 sets, and of course all stood in water above the rail tops during the flood. Presumably that's where the figure came from.
It's also been covered in the Storm Brian thread, where curiously the sets involved were all reported to be 'checked and o.k.'.
 

Bald Rick

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I really think this shows a lack of planning on their part as they weather and flooding in the area was forecast in advance far enough ahead that there should have been time to move them somewhere else as a temporary measure.

I understand staff might not have been available at the last minute but it should h been possible to avoid this issue.

For goodness sake show some respect - do you really think that WMT management don’t care and allowed this to happen if they could have done something about it?

When was the last time those sidings flooded? I don’t remember them ever flooding before, certainly not to that extent. (I’m sure someone will correct me if wrong). Are WMT management expected to be clairvoyant hydrologists and predict flooding that has never happened before?

In any event I understand it is 4/5 units affected, not 14.
 
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Magdalia

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I really think this shows a lack of planning on their part as they weather and flooding in the area was forecast in advance far enough ahead that there should have been time to move them somewhere else as a temporary measure.

I understand staff might not have been available at the last minute but it should h been possible to avoid this issue.
The flooding in Northampton was unprecedented, with water in the station almost up to platform level. See the picture here:


A major incident has been declared by emergency services in Northamptonshire after flooding from Storm Bert.

Note in particular this quote from the Environment Agency:

Ben Thornley, area flood risk manager for the Environment Agency, said the flooding in the county was "the highest flows [of water] through Northampton that we've ever seen".

He said: "180 tonnes of water a second was flowing through Northampton this weekend.

Are you really suggesting that rail staff should enter fast moving floodwater to move trains?
 

Darandio

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Are you really suggesting that rail staff should enter fast moving floodwater to move trains?

I think it's abundantly clear the post didn't suggest anything of the sort, rather that the event was forecast far enough in advance that the units could be moved out of harms way.

But even that wasn't correct, there was no way the forecast could foresee what eventually unfolded. Unprecedented.
 

800001

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Some more 730s may need to come into service early to replace them, at least while the 350s are being dried out and cleaned.
Which 730s do you suggest they bring into service? All the /0s are in service I believe?

The 730/2 are not even accepted by LNWR, let alone crew training started, so no chance of them entering service.

I really think this shows a lack of planning on their part as they weather and flooding in the area was forecast in advance far enough ahead that there should have been time to move them somewhere else as a temporary measure.

I understand staff might not have been available at the last minute but it should h been possible to avoid this issue.
The floods and water levels in Northampton were unprecedented, and have never reached levels like that previously.
I’m unaware of the station and near the depot ever flooding to such a level like it did, no Railway company could have predicted that.
Even though people slate LNWR, if they had been warned Northampton station and sidings would be under water, the units would not of been there, they would have been moved to a safe place.
 

Russel

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So, ignoring what WMT could or couldn't have done for a second, do we know what damage was actually caused, how many units and how long they will be out of service?
 

Discuss223

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From what I understand of 350s, they don't have pneumatic seals on the doors like some other stock, meaning the doors remain sealed tightly when the train is stationary. I find it hard to comprehend how water could have gotten through the chain of rubber seals that guard the doorways on such a unit. I assume all of the undercarriage gear is waterproof and securely sealed from water ingress, that's a given in that trains undergo climate testing before entering service. I am guessing there is a lot more to this story. Perhaps a cab door window was left open and water got in?
 

Discuss223

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How deep do you think the flood water was?!
Haha yes, I did think that it would be too high. I'm just baffled by the whole incident. I've never heard of a train being flooded! Tracks, yes, stations occasionally but never trains.
 

YorkshireBear

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From what I understand of 350s, they don't have pneumatic seals on the doors like some other stock, meaning the doors remain sealed tightly when the train is stationary. I find it hard to comprehend how water could have gotten through the chain of rubber seals that guard the doorways on such a unit. I assume all of the undercarriage gear is waterproof and securely sealed from water ingress, that's a given in that trains undergo climate testing before entering service. I am guessing there is a lot more to this story. Perhaps a cab door window was left open and water got in?
I doubt the undercarriage is sealed to the extent of sitting in flood water. That isn't a normal occurrence at all.

Haha yes, I did think that it would be too high. I'm just baffled by the whole incident. I've never heard of a train being flooded! Tracks, yes, stations occasionally but never trains.
Keighley and Worth Valley locos suffered flood damage when their depot flooded, it just needs to get to axles to start damaging them. More common than you think.
 

507020

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Some more 730s may need to come into service early to replace them, at least while the 350s are being dried out and cleaned.
What? That won’t be enough at all.
From what I understand of 350s, they don't have pneumatic seals on the doors like some other stock, meaning the doors remain sealed tightly when the train is stationary. I find it hard to comprehend how water could have gotten through the chain of rubber seals that guard the doorways on such a unit. I assume all of the undercarriage gear is waterproof and securely sealed from water ingress, that's a given in that trains undergo climate testing before entering service. I am guessing there is a lot more to this story. Perhaps a cab door window was left open and water got in?
No. None of it will be. It might be rain proof for obvious reasons, but it can’t survive being fully submerged in water. We’ve seen how badly certain trains deal with Dawlish. LNWR and Siemens have got 14 lots of fried electrical equipment to deal with. If any 350/2s were affected they may try to avoid them reentering service.
I really think this shows a lack of planning on their part as they weather and flooding in the area was forecast in advance far enough ahead that there should have been time to move them somewhere else as a temporary measure.

I understand staff might not have been available at the last minute but it should h been possible to avoid this issue.
Exactly this. There is outrage when you suggest that the units could have been dumped anywhere that electrical equipment wouldn’t have been destroyed.

The cost of arranging STP diagrams even a week in advance to end somewhere else, other than Northampton, leaving them dumped at say Euston under the roof, being aware of the unacceptable weather conditions expected to affect the main depot at Northampton would have been negligible compared to the cost of rebuilding a fleet of 14 EMUs.
Shouldn’t of been sent out in the first place if the railway had flooded
What we’re talking about here is the opposite. The main Siemens depot is in Northampton, where the line flooded.
The usual overnight storage is 12 cars in each of the two Riverside sidings and in platform 4 and 5, and 8 in platform 3. This makes 14 sets, and of course all stood in water above the rail tops during the flood. Presumably that's where the figure came from.
Are you seriously telling me the sidings are called Riverside sidings? What phenomenon is known to happen to rivers during severe storms?

The reason the original London and Birmingham Railway bypassed Northampton was that its too low down, that is a train contemporary with Stephenson’s Rocket could not have climbed the gradients to leave Northampton.

Flooding, at a riverside location known to be low lying is just inevitable.
Keighley and Worth Valley locos suffered flood damage when their depot flooded, it just needs to get to axles to start damaging them. More common than you think.
Those aren’t EMUs with live high voltage electrical equipment to deal with either.
 

boxerdog

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The class 350 units that were most badly affected were stabled (pan down/batteries off) in platforms 4 & 5 at Northampton. I am unsure about the class 730 and if they were affected, I'm thinking they weren't. If the units were not stabled powered down, I'm sure there would be more damage. 2 units that were involved are allegedly ok, the rest have got to 'dry out' (5 units) - how you achieve this in winter and outside I am not sure. All the below sole bar equipment will have been submerged (TCUs, Bearings, Transformer, Couplers etc). I guess the 5 units will be OOU for an unknown & possibly extended period of time. I have heard rumours about a flood barrier being left open or opened (but I don't know if there's any truth in this).
 

87015

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In any event I understand it is 4/5 units affected, not 14.
Significantly less units than the 350/2s on patch, serviceable and simply stopped for hand back then. Despite this there are amendments to short form and extend journey times in RTT from next week.
 

Merle Haggard

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snip

Are you seriously telling me the sidings are called Riverside sidings? What phenomenon is known to happen to rivers during severe storms?

When I worked there long ago it (the second one is a truncated freight loop) was known as the 'river side siding' (the separation into two words being important) to distinguish it from the many others. It's at the same rail level as the rest of the station. It's always been used for the stabling of coaching stock.

The Bronze Age settlers of what became Northampton probably chose the site because it's a hill surrounded almost completely by rivers, so easy to defend. When the L.N.W.R. decided to build a station they chose one of the few available locations - a site where the castle on the side of a hill looked out over a low lying area with a river running through it. They demolished the castle and diverted the river into the course it now takes behind the station. Even before the Nene flood alleviation schemes of the 1950s the station itself never flooded*, although the Victorian housing behind has regularly flooded.

In the (grudging) defence of LNw the number of units in service has steadily increased (350/3s and 350/4s, for instance, were extra stock) with no increase in carriage sidings so recourse has to be taken to locations such as station platforms. It is exacerbated by the present replacement programme - 2 off lease 350/2s are in the Up side South facing bay at Rugby, for instance.

*I certainly can't remember it ever happening, and at last Monday's R.C.T.S. branch meeting neither could others even older than me.
 

Falcon1200

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The cost of arranging STP diagrams even a week in advance to end somewhere else, other than Northampton, leaving them dumped at say Euston under the roof, being aware of the unacceptable weather conditions expected to affect the main depot at Northampton would have been negligible compared to the cost of rebuilding a fleet of 14 EMUs.

When exactly was it predicted that Northampton would flood to such an extent that stabled trains would be damaged? As mentioned above the situation was unprecedented.
 

edwin_m

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Haha yes, I did think that it would be too high. I'm just baffled by the whole incident. I've never heard of a train being flooded! Tracks, yes, stations occasionally but never trains.

Have a quick Google for 156478, it had quite a deep bath.
There was also a 314 submerged almost up to cantrail level in one of the sub-surface Glasgow stations back in the 1990s (?).
 

Bald Rick

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being aware of the unacceptable weather conditions expected to affect the main depot at Northampton would have been negligible compared to the cost of rebuilding a fleet of 14 EMUs.

the weather conditions were not expected to affect the main depot at Notthampton.
 

Class 317

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For goodness sake show some respect - do you really think that WMT management don’t care and allowed this to happen if they could have done something about it?

When was the last time those sidings flooded? I don’t remember them ever flooding before, certainly not to that extent. (I’m sure someone will correct me if wrong). Are WMT management expected to be clairvoyant hydrologists and predict flooding that has never happened before?

In any event I understand it is 4/5 units affected, not 14
I'm not suggesting they are incompetent just have a lack of contingency planning around a predictable and indeed predicted in advance event.

A weather warning for severe flooding up to a height likely to cause problems in this area was issued 52 hours in advance followed by a flood warning 27 hours ahead. This flood warning had an 87% confidence level that the area of Northampton including the station and sidings would experience flooding to a level to cause significant damage to property and or risk to life.

It may not have flooded for years but we live in times of uncertainty regarding weather events and a changing climate making them likely to both occur more frequently and be more severe.

WMT had between 52 and 27 hours notice that this was a strong possibility on this occasion. Indeed the possibility of these areas flooding given the fact it has happened before is higher now than ever. Better contingency planning should be in place across the railway for responding to these events given the increasing frequency they are occurring.
 

Darandio

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A weather warning for severe flooding up to a height likely to cause problems in this area was issued 52 hours in advance followed by a flood warning 27 hours ahead. This flood warning had an 87% confidence level that the area of Northampton including the station and sidings would experience flooding to a level to cause significant damage to property and or risk to life.

Source?

Anything I saw at the time suggests the water level ended up being half a metre higher than any worst case prediction.
 

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