5 penalty fares in 2 weeks... please help!!

[Olleh]

Hello!

Was wondering if anyone could help me at all? I have received several penalty fares for apparently being out of the right zone of my ticket, but I can't see how!!

I have a season ticket from Chafford Hundred to Southend Stations. (Southend Stations: Southend Central, S. Victoria, S. East and S. Airport) Both Chafford and S. Central are on the same line (c2c/National Express). The season ticket says "Any permitted" route.

I frequently travel to Wickford (NXEA line). The route is Chafford Hundred - Upminster (c2c), Upminster - Romford (NXEA), Romford - Wickford (NXEA). The following three stops after Wickford is Southend Victoria. As I have a season ticket, surely I am allowed to go this route (via Romford), and break my journey to Southend Victoria early at Wickford?

I have tried to read the ATOC Routeing guide but it is way too confusing. I never seem to "go back on myself" as the trains are all in one geographical direction.

When I try to protest to ticket inspectors, they reply with "You could have gone to Southend Central because it's on the same line as Chafford Hundred." Is this right/fair?

Could someone please please help me? As I am fed up of getting on the train with my (hopefully) valid ticket, wondering if I am getting another fine today.

Thanks very much.

 

[scotsman]

Could it be because your journey is much longer than the direct route?

Sorry, I don't know the area very well.

 

[Olleh]

Could it be because your journey is much longer than the direct route?

Sorry, I don't know the area very well.

Chafford Hundred - Southend Central is 48 minutes (no changes).
Chafford Hundred - Southend Victoria via Romford varies from 1h20 to 1h50 (3 or 4 changes).

Thanks for the help!

 

[Fred26]

Is Southend Airport station actually included in 'Southend Stations'?

 

[Olleh]

Is Southend Airport station actually included in 'Southend Stations'?

Apparently so. It's not open yet though...

 

[transportphoto]

Chafford Hundred - RPs:
Barking
Romford Group
Southend Group

Southend Group includes:

SOUTHEND CENTRAL
SOUTHEND EAST
SOUTHEND VICTORIA

-------------------------------------

Does the fare check rule come into this here??? - this is where I fail if it does.

-------------------------------------

Romford Group to Southend Group: EA
Barking to Southend Group: TS

EA allows - Romford Grp to Southend Grp (Vic) via Shenfield.
TS allows - C2C lines.

HTH
TP

As far as I can see this is valid but please wait and get this confirmed by our routeing experts.

 

[Olleh]

Chafford Hundred - RPs:
Barking
Romford Group
Southend Group

Southend Group includes:

SOUTHEND CENTRAL
SOUTHEND EAST
SOUTHEND VICTORIA

-------------------------------------

Does the fare check rule come into this here??? - this is where I fail if it does.

-------------------------------------

Romford Group to Southend Group: EA
Barking to Southend Group: TS

EA allows - Romford Grp to Southend Grp (Vic) via Shenfield.
TS allows - C2C lines.

HTH
TP

Thank you for your reply - sadly, I don't understand what you mean!! Could you please rephrase?

 

[scotsman]

Thank you for your reply - sadly, I don't understand what you mean!! Could you please rephrase?

Basically, it says your route should be valid

 

[transportphoto]

Thank you for your reply - sadly, I don't understand what you mean!! Could you please rephrase?

See my addition! Basiclly from what I can tell this is valid but please please please wait for this to be confirmed/corrected by our routing experts!

Don't be embarased - even I'm confused eventhough I have some knowledge of the RG!

Thanks

TP

 

[Royston Vasey]

Different case, but is this like a London Terminals ticket? I.e. Although you can buy a destination "London terminals" any permitted ticket it is only valid to the relevant terminal(s) e.g. Reading to London Terminals is only valid to two, Paddington or Waterloo, not Kings Cross or Liverpool St as that would be a different and longer route.

Does this ticket only give you access to a limited number of Southend stations?.

That said a "Manchester stations" ticket into Piccadilly is valid for further travel to Oxford Road or Victoria.

 

[Olleh]

See my addition! Basiclly from what I can tell this is valid but please please please wait for this to be confirmed/corrected by our routing experts!

Don't be embarased - even I'm confused eventhough I have some knowledge of the RG!

Thanks

TP

Thank you so much! In regards to:

Romford Group to Southend Group: EA
Barking to Southend Group: TS

EA allows - Romford Grp to Southend Grp (Vic) via Shenfield.
TS allows - C2C lines.

Could you explain what "EA" and "TS" mean? (and 'RPs' too, I guess).

Sorry for causing so much inconvenience.

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

At the risk of sowing further confusion, as I am not an expert on these matters, going via Romford would seem to fail the fares check rule.

Using an Anytime single as the measuring stick:

Chafford Hundred to Southend £6.30
Romford to Southend £8.10

The fares check rule means you cannot use a routeing point (Romford in this case) if the fare FROM the routing point is more expensive than the through ticket.

I may not be making a valid comparison however as your ticket is a season

 

[transportphoto]

Thank you so much! In regards to:



Could you explain what "EA" and "TS" mean? (and 'ARP' too, I guess).

Sorry for causing so much inconvenience.

Sorry, no not at all - its me causing you to get confused !!!!

EA & TS are maps in the Routing Guide, used to determin a 'permitted' route (somehow ) and RP is short for 'Routing Point' which again is part of the routing guide.

At the risk of sowing further confusion, as I am not an expert on these matters, going via Romford would seem to fail the fares check rule.

Using an Anytime single as the measuring stick:

Chafford Hundred to Southend £6.30
Romford to Southend £8.10

The fares check rule means you cannot use a routeing point (Romford in this case) if the fare FROM the routing point is more expensive than the through ticket.

I may not be making a valid comparison however as your ticket is a season

That may mean that the ticket is invalid via that route, however as I said earlier I am no good at the Fares Check Rule.

 

[tony_mac]

The easiest thing to do, as a first check, is go to Nationalrail.co.uk, and put your journey in as Chafford Hundred to Southend Stations via Wickford.

Then check the fares, and see if you need to buy multiple tickets.

National Rail is supposed to be the official source of this information, and that says that your journey is valid.

Perhaps you could print a page off and take it with you? Or ask the guard to ring national rail enquiries to check with them?
....
(I will also check the routeing guide in a short while....)
........
Ok, Chafford Hundred has Southend group as routeing point - so only the shortest route and direct trains will be officially valid (I could not find an easement).

So, it seems that you aren't supposed to be allowed to go that way - but national rail enquries say you can. Also both C2C and NXEA websites say that you can - I would use printouts from those to show it should be allowed.

 

[Olleh]

At the risk of sowing further confusion, as I am not an expert on these matters, going via Romford would seem to fail the fares check rule.

Using an Anytime single as the measuring stick:

Chafford Hundred to Southend £6.30
Romford to Southend £8.10

The fares check rule means you cannot use a routeing point (Romford in this case) if the fare FROM the routing point is more expensive than the through ticket.

I may not be making a valid comparison however as your ticket is a season

Thank you for your contribution! Could you explain the fare check rule please? Many thanks.

@TP, thank you very much!

 

[yorkie]

Are you sure you have received a Penalty fare? Not an excess fare or additional ticket?

A penalty fare is £20 (or, for longer distance services, twice the full single fare, whichever is the greatest).

A penalty fare must not be issued for the reason of being 'off route'

If you have been issued penalty fares, can you tell us the reason(s) given?

 

[mumrar]

Thank you for your contribution! Could you explain the fare check rule please? Many thanks.

@TP, thank you very much!

A route is not permitted under the fare check rule if you want to go from A to B via C, but a ticket from C-B is more expensive than the equivalent from A-B, where C is your routeing point. Does that help at all?

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

Thank you for your contribution! Could you explain the fare check rule please? Many thanks.

@TP, thank you very much!

Oh Lordy! Well, I asked for it, didn't I?

Well basically, if the cost of your ticket is less than the cost of one of the legs of your selected route, then it cannot be used on that route (the Routeing Guide gives a more precise definition). Although each station can have several routeing points, they will not necessarily all be valid for any particular journey.

To fully understand it (heh!) you need to read and reread the Routeing Guide, but even seasoned "routers" can find it difficult to fathom at times, and I'm very much an apprentice.

 

[Olleh]

Are you sure you have received a Penalty fare? Not an excess fare or additional ticket?

A penalty fare is £20 (or, for longer distance services, twice the full single fare, whichever is the greatest).

A penalty fare must not be issued for the reason of being 'off route'

If you have been issued penalty fares, can you tell us the reason(s) given?

100% certain. £20 penalty fare for not having a valid ticket (being on a train without a valid ticket four times), being over a "yellow line" at romford without a valid ticket once.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well basically, if the cost of your ticket is less than the cost of one of the legs of your selected route, then it cannot be used on that route (the Routeing Guide gives a more precise definition). Although each station has up to 3 routeing points, they will not necessarily all be valid for any particular journey.

But my ticket costs almost £3,000!! it's a season ticket, which makes it all the more confusing.

 

[yorkie]

It's not valid but that doesn't necessarily mean you are liable for a Penalty Fare. I reckon you have a chance of a successful appeal. I base this on what RPIs have told me.

Here is an example of an experienced, knowledgable RPI.

As for reasons, see this.

The options you have are: No Ticket, Out of Date, Travelling beyond Validity, No Supporting Document, Adult on Child, Standard to First, Off Route and Restricted Ticket.

Since that list was created, Off Route and Restricted tickets were removed as a valid options.

Which of those did they tick? 'No ticket' is clearly wrong. I would argue this is off route (which is no longer an option), but they could argue it is travelling beyond validity (though I would disagree). But no ticket can't be right as you had a ticket, albeit not a valid one for this journey.

If they ticked 'No ticket' then I reckon you have grounds for appeal.

If they ticked 'Off route' then they are using an old penalty fare pad and this is no longer a valid option since the regulations changed a few years ago.

If they ticked 'travelling beyond validity' then it is a debatable point.

The Routeing Guide is confusing and it is easy to see how someone may mistakenly think that it is a permitted route.

 

[sheff1]

Notwithstanding any Routing Guide calculations (including the fare check rule), National Rail Enquiries shows the following:

Chafford Hundred (CFH) to SOUTHEND STNS
Available Standard Class Adult Season Tickets (Travel is allowed by any route option shown by the Journey Planner)
Days/Months Price
7 Days £43.20
1 Month £165.90
3 Months £497.70
6 Months £995.40
12 Months £1,728.00

With reference to the bit I have highlighted - the Journey Planner allows you to travel via Romford and Wickford. And a season ticket allows you to stop off at any station on an allowed route.

 

[yorkie]

But my ticket costs almost £3,000!! it's a season ticket, which makes it all the more confusing.

I am confused. I didn't think you could buy longer than 1 year for a season. Yet according to Avantix Traveller, the price of a Chafford Hundred - Southend Stations annual season is £1728.00.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Notwithstanding any Routing Guide calculations (including the fare check rule), National Rail Enquiries shows the following:

Chafford Hundred (CFH) to SOUTHEND STNS
Available Standard Class Adult Season Tickets (Travel is allowed by any route option shown by the Journey Planner)
Days/Months Price
7 Days £43.20
1 Month £165.90
3 Months £497.70
6 Months £995.40
12 Months £1,728.00

With reference to the bit I have highlighted - the Journey Planner allows you to travel via Romford and Wickford. And a season ticket allows you to stop off at any station on an allowed route.

The Routeing Guide says it's not valid (according to my interpretation) however the National Rail Journey Planner and all ticket booking engines have their own interpretation of the Routeing Guide. And your contract says it's the interpretation of the National rail journey planner that counts.

My advice to the OP is to print as much evidence as you can that suggests that via Wickford/Romford is said to be a valid route (e.g. try thetrainline, National Rail Enquiries, and Atos Origin-powered sites) take screenshots, take printouts, and when you appeal, make it clear that
1) The route is valid according to the sources quoted; and
2) The allegation that you were off route, although false, even if it were true could not result in a penalty fare as being off route is not a valid reason for issuing a penalty fare.

Do I expect RPIs to know any of this? Given my experience of London & South East based RPIs, no. Should they? Of course! Is this acceptable? No. Will the DfT ever step in and sort it out? No. Good luck!

 

[W-on-Sea]

As a c2c season ticket holder (Southend EAST to London Terminals), I'd be surprised if your ticket was "officially" valid via Wickford (or via NXEA at all). As in my understanding my ticket isn't....

Although...if yours actually says "Southend Stations" on it might, possibly, be different. (I think there are not well-publicised season tickets available from London Terminals to Southend Stations; which are more expensive than those from London Terminals to Southend Victoira; which in turn are more expensive than those from London Terminals to Southend Central (or East, or Westcliff - all of which are the same price). It is not inconcievable that such "dual route" tickets might be available from other starting points too.

But I am also unsurprised that the NRE Journey Planner should show that this route is apparently valid. The NRE journey planner will also,if you specify "via Wickford" (etc), show that tickets from e.g. Westcliff to London (which are substantially cheaper than tickets from Southend VICTORIA to London) are valid via the NXEA route. Although I don't think this would satisfy staff on the ground on the way...

We've discussed this here previously, and didn't seem to come to any agreement; but FWIW in my experience the staff at Southend Victoria and at Liverpool Street are consistent in stating that c2c tickets are only valid via Victoria when a special easement (because of extensive engineering works or major disruptions on the c2c line) has been put in place. (This is generally publicised on the c2c website and at their stations)

But clearly there is some disconnect between what is said on the ground and what the NRE journey planner (and possibly the routing guide) permits or appears to permit.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Chafford Hundred and Southend Share a common routeing point, Southend Group, the only valid routes are:

The shortest route (Distance).

By direct trains.

 

[MikeWh]

Chafford Hundred and Southend Share a common routeing point, Southend Group, the only valid routes are:

The shortest route (Distance).

By direct trains.

Plus a route no longer than 3 miles further than the shortest route.

 

[b0b]

Plus a route no longer than 3 miles further than the shortest route.

maybe ....

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It does say in the examples that it is the case, the only problem is that the examples were clearly not written by the person that wrote the instructions, as they contain a few inconsistancies/errors.

This is why I did not mention it.

 

[flymo]

Plus a route no longer than 3 miles further than the shortest route.

Surely this point cannot be enforced because in the current NR timetable, there are no mileages shown in any tables.

How does one calculate the distances involved?

 

[LexyBoy]

Surely as sheff1 pointed out though, it's stated that the ticket is valid by any route valid on the Journey Planner.

Not the RG.

Surely letters with a printout of the NRE Journey Planner showing this as a valid route should get a refund?? I think if a TOC said "oh well, the Journey Planner isn't accurate, you should have checked the Routeing Guide (according to our interpretation of it)" then they would be on rather dodgy ground.

There seems to be a rather large number of routes allowed by the Journey Planner but not by the RG - and vice versa - which is hardly reassuring for the average punter :roll:

 

[Ferret]

I'm curious - does 5 penalty fares for the same thing in a very short space of time not put the OP in serious danger of being MG11'd and reported for prosecution?