5 x 180s up for grabs

[swt_passenger]

EMT have no objection in principle to splitting the service at Nottingham.

It doesn't matter if EMT have no objections to operating a split service (ie separate services east and west of Nottingham) - the DfT consulted and decided it had to remain a through service.

Consulatation 2006:

The original Central Trains remapping announcement, made in October 2005, recommended splitting the Liverpool to Norwich service at Nottingham, on grounds of improved performance. The Liverpool to Nottingham service was to be competitively bid between TransPennine Express and the bidders for the East Midlands franchise. However, further work has shown that the business case for the split is weak. Demand and revenue would fall and costs would increase. To offset the cost increases and create a positive business case would require an improbable improvement in performance. DfT has therefore decided that the Liverpool – Norwich service should not be split.

Franchise briefing 2006:

Following an extensive review of alternative options, including the possibility of splitting the service at Nottingham, it is now intended that there will be no significant changes.

Franchise spec 2007:

Bidders may wish to investigate opportunities to extend dwell-times at Nottingham in order to attach or detach vehicles, with a view to the provision of increased capacity on the Liverpool-Nottingham leg of the journey, over which some crowding problems are experienced at present, particularly between Manchester and Sheffield. Bidders may also consider using a longer dwell at Nottingham to improve performance

You'll see Liverpool to Nottingham was originally a possibility for transfer to TPE. Maybe that's why so many people here have proposed it since.

And the strengthening from 2 to 4 car west of Nottingham was always the eventual plan...

 

[tbtc]

Virgin don't provide a regular Preston-Edinburgh service

Its roughly every two hours (approx half of the hourly Birmingham - Preston - Carlisle trains run to Edinburgh, with the other half going to Glasgow)

 

[northwichcat]

Its roughly every two hours (approx half of the hourly Birmingham - Preston - Carlisle trains run to Edinburgh, with the other half going to Glasgow)

I meant to say 'as regular' because they operate twice as many Glasgow trains as Edinburgh trains, as well as Glasgow getting around 3 times the capacity that Edinburgh gets.

 

[MCR247]

Another 180 suggestion:

TPE use them for Manchester Airport to Edinburgh services (Edinburgh over Glasgow as Virgin don't provide a regular Preston-Edinburgh service.)

Glasgow services could be run by 2 or 3 x 170s, with one attached or detached at Preston for the Windermere run. This would leave 3 car 185s to replace the 2 car 170s on North/South TPE.

But would the 170s be able to keep to time with the awful acceleration? And why do the Glasgows with 170s? I don't see any reason for that :?

 

[northwichcat]

But would the 170s be able to keep to time with the awful acceleration? And why do the Glasgows with 170s? I don't see any reason for that :?

That way Scottish, North and South TPE would all see increases in capacity. The only other way I can think of that would achieve that is to use the cascaded 185s to replace 170s on South TPE and put them on North TPE, but then that would see the Hull service as 4 car which would mean the least busy North TPE route gets the most capacity.

 

[Kneedown]

EMT can use 222s on Liverpool-Norwich on Saturdays and Sundays but choose not to under normal circumstances.

Due to Traction knowledge issues, ie Nottingham Drivers don't sign 222's and Derby Drivers don't sign Liverpool.

But then isn't the route timed for 75mph running opposed to 90mph running so that 156s and 153s can be used without losing time?

Exactly the point i'm making, but some folks seem to have the idea that 158's actually do 90mph over the entire Hope Valley route, and on the way to Norwich.
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It doesn't matter if EMT have no objections to operating a split service (ie separate services east and west of Nottingham) - the DfT consulted and decided it had to remain a through service.

Your original quote was:-
"The Dft tried to split the route at Nottingham when the franchise was being relet, and there were massive local objections - allegedly from people who'd never normally set foot on the train"

You'll see Liverpool to Nottingham was originally a possibility for transfer to TPE. Maybe that's why so many people here have proposed it since.

And the strengthening from 2 to 4 car west of Nottingham was always the eventual plan...

But there wouldn't be any significant improvement if TPE had got it as 3cars are too short for the service, but doubling up to 6cars wouldn't work either due to short platforms.

 

[blackfive460]

There is no allegedly about it, the back 3 does not fit on the platform at Seamer and the local instruction is to keep the back set locked out until York.

Fair enough but I was somewhat confused as, from time to time, 6 cars have run to Scarborough carrying passengers in all 6.
Must admit though, I suspected the problem was at Seamer but thought that it would probably only affect the rearmost door so assumed that a 180 would fit if that were indeed the problem.

There was no need to infer the staff do it to annoy passengers / commission grab

I wasn't inferring anything of the kind.

 

[northwichcat]

Fair enough but I was somewhat confused as, from time to time, 6 cars have run to Scarborough carrying passengers in all 6.

150s, 156s, 158s and 185s have all done TPE services to Scarborough.

A 150 car is 19.5m long meaning a 6 car 150 is 117m.

A 156 car is 23m long meaning a 6 car 158 is 138m.

A 158 car is 23.7m long meaning a 6 car 158 is 142.2m.

A 185 car is 23.8m long meaning a 6 car 158 is 142.8m.

Also note 150/2s and 158s can be used with corridor connectors so it's easy for the conductor to ask passengers towards the front or back wishing to alight to move further up/down the train.

I've seen platforms which are only marked for 4 car easily take a 6 car combination if it involves 142s and/or 150s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Exactly the point i'm making, but some folks seem to have the idea that 158's actually do 90mph over the entire Hope Valley route, and on the way to Norwich.

But to be fair there are 90mph signs along the Hope Valley and 158s can do Stockport-Sheffield 2 or 3 minutes faster than they are timetabled for even if they don't do 90mph all the way. They certainly can't do 90mph between Stockport and Hazel Grove though.

 

[Kneedown]

But to be fair there are 90mph signs along the Hope Valley and 158s can do Stockport-Sheffield 2 or 3 minutes faster than they are timetabled for even if they don't do 90mph all the way. They certainly can't do 90mph between Stockport and Hazel Grove though.

From Stockport to Sheffield the only place where you will actually get 90mph (If you've got a reasonable unit!) Is from when you hit Edale (slowing to 85 for the descent down "Normans bank") through to Hathersage. About 7minutes in 2hr 40min journey from Liverpool through to Nott's.
It would hardly muck up the timings to have units on the route that have a slightly slower top end speed over this short stretch, but have more power and faster acceleration, and above all better capacity and travelling conditions.

 

[Donny Dave]

But to be fair there are 90mph signs along the Hope Valley and 158s can do Stockport-Sheffield 2 or 3 minutes faster than they are timetabled for even if they don't do 90mph all the way. They certainly can't do 90mph between Stockport and Hazel Grove though.

Yes, there is SP90 signs along the Hope Valley. Doesn't mean 158s or 170s can reach 90mph though. The only time they tend to run at that speed is when they are travelling between Cowburn and Totley tunnels. IE all downhill
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From Stockport to Sheffield the only place where you will actually get 90mph (If you've got a reasonable unit!) Is from when you hit Edale (slowing to 85 for the descent down "Normans bank") through to Hathersage. About 7minutes in 2hr 40min journey from Liverpool through to Nott's.
It would hardly muck up the timings to have units on the route that have a slightly slower top end speed over this short stretch, but have more power and faster acceleration, and above all better capacity and travelling conditions.

Something like the 185s perhaps? Limited to the normal 60/70 mph line speeds over the Hope Valley, but provide a quicker journey