5 x 180s up for grabs

[northwichcat]

Train operator East Coast has today announced a number of amendments to the planned introduction of a new timetable from May 2011.

Under the amendments, most of the planned new London King’s Cross – Lincoln services will now operate between King’s Cross and Newark, with one through train per day in each direction between Lincoln and King’s Cross. As a consequence, it will not be necessary to introduce an additional fleet of trains (five Adelante Class 180s), and the daily service to and from Lincoln/King’s Cross will be resourced from within the existing East Coast fleet.

East Coast will discuss the future of the Adelante Class 180s with the Department for Transport.

Author: Tony Miles.

 

[gordonthemoron]

so that means they've buggered up the services between Newark and the north for no good reason

 

[northwichcat]

so that means they've buggered up the services between Newark and the north for no good reason

You have to remember it's a London link - no operator cares about people who join a northbound service north of London or join a southbound one south of London. It was the same with Virgin's Scotland/Lancashire-London service when they removed the Crewe stop and added an extra Manchester-London service calling at Crewe to 'balance it out.'

 

[GNERman]

I presume this means that Northern will continue to lease 3 for the Manchester Area and HT could possibly take another to get the other's refurbed and reliveried...

I believe the units are 102, 103, 104, 106 and 108...

 

[northwichcat]

I presume this means that Northern will continue to lease 3 for the Manchester Area and HT could possibly take another to get the other's refurbed and reliveried...

I believe the units are 102, 103, 104, 106 and 108...

I don't think you can presume that as Northern would much rather have had Sprinters than 180s and only took the 180s as there were no other units available except loco-hauled.

You have to remember the new DfT don't want to buy any new trains and this makes up to 25 carriages available. TPE, Northern, EMT and FGW are all in desperate need of extra capacity and out of those 4 it's defintely Northern who have the routes less suited to 180s.

 

[GNERman]

I don't think you can presume that as Northern would much rather have had Sprinters than 180s and only took the 180s as there were no other units available except loco-hauled.

You have to remember the new DfT don't want to buy any new trains and this makes up to 25 carriages available. TPE, Northern, EMT and FGW are all in desperate need of extra capacity and out of those 4 it's defintely Northern who have the routes less suited to 180s.

Northern already have drivers who are trained on the units.

The 180's would suit the Newcastle-Manchester and Scotland-Manchester services for TPE, but whether they will or not is another question.

 

[Geezertronic]

You have to remember it's a London link - no operator cares about people who join a northbound service north of London or join a southbound one south of London. It was the same with Virgin's Scotland/Lancashire-London service when they removed the Crewe stop and added an extra Manchester-London service calling at Crewe to 'balance it out.'

And one of the evening EBW services is extended to Stafford and Crewe

 

[Failed Unit]

Gutted if it is true. But unless other services are trimmed this will not save 5 units. Turning back at Newark will probably only save one. So unless London to York or other routes lose out they need more sets. Surprised the other press haven't picked up on this if true. Nothing on Lincolnshire news I would expect it to be a major headline.

 

[CallySleeperKid]

Give them to EMT for the rush hour Liverpool - Nottingham/Norwich service.

Not that it effects me anymore as they don't stop at Langley Mill!

 

[Donny Dave]

CHANGES TO EAST COAST EUREKA! TIMETABLE PROPOSALS

Train operator East Coast has today announced a number of amendments to the planned introduction of a new timetable from May 2011.

Under the amendments, most of the planned new London King’s Cross – Lincoln services will now operate between King’s Cross and Newark, with one through train per day in each direction between Lincoln and King’s Cross. As a consequence, it will not be necessary to introduce an additional fleet of trains (five Adelante Class 180s), and the daily service to and from Lincoln/King’s Cross will be resourced from within the existing East Coast fleet.

The amendments to the timetable changes proposed will result in a net saving of £9 million per year compared to the original plans.

Speaking about today’s announcement, Elaine Holt, Chief Executive of Directly Operated Railways and Chairman of East Coast, said: “I know this will come as a disappointment to many people, especially to those in Lincoln who were looking forward to a much improved direct service to London.

“We had believed the proposed new Lincoln services would provide more through trains for customers from the region – and this formed an important part of the Eureka! timetable changes. However, given the very tough economic climate, all parts of the Government are looking to see where efficiencies can be made.

“We’re very pleased that two through services will be retained for Lincoln.”

East Coast mounted an extensive information and consultation programme earlier in 2010 in England and Scotland to communicate details of the proposed Eureka! timetable. As a result, the company processed 1,500 feedback enquiries and the results of this work were passed to Network Rail, the Office of Rail Regulation and the Department of Transport.

East Coast will be communicating the details of the latest changes to stakeholders over the next few days.

Seven weekday trains in each direction had been planned for the new Lincoln/London King’s Cross services, using the Adelante Class 180 trains. Now, the modified service pattern will include a single direct service from Lincoln, in the morning departing at 07.22, arriving at King’s Cross at 09.21 (calling at Newark, Grantham, Peterborough, Stevenage, and London King’s Cross). During the evening peak, a single direct service will leave King’s Cross at 19.06, arriving at Lincoln at 21.00.

Four additional services will be available in each direction between Newark and London King’s Cross, provided by East Coast’s nine-carriage trains, and providing valuable extra capacity on this busy route. These will link to connecting services between Newark and Lincoln.

Copy/paste of what Tony Miles posted on WNXX

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Just remember you need to have an account with that board to be able to read it! :roll:

 

[RobShipway]

Give them to EMT for the rush hour Liverpool - Nottingham/Norwich service.

Not that it effects me anymore as they don't stop at Langley Mill!

I agree or hand them to Arriva Trains Wales for the North Wales route to displace some of the class 158 trains they have on this route for other ATW routes or to be used by other operators.

 

[Failed Unit]

As normal Lincolnshire gets the @@@@ end of the stick. Gutted. Look credible but hopefully wrong.

 

[jonhewes]

That's a big shame, and with a journey time of nearly two hours, isn't that much better than the EMT offering currently in operation.

It makes no sense at all stopping short at Newark, given that Lincoln is only an extra 19/20 miles away.

There is no reason why the HSTs they are planning on using could not run to Lincoln

 

[atomicdanny]

I could think of several train companies that would probably use them (well except FGW of course).

(A few ideas)
Cross Country for more seats
ATW for their long distance services
Chiltern for Wrexham and shropshire?
Virgin Trains (holyhead routes?)
Northern for what they had them before?
EMT for their crowded trains (Liverpool - Norwich)
Scotrail for their longer routes? (e.g. those that use four car 158s?)
Southern - Uckfield route (in the peaks?)

 

[oliverj8]

As normal Lincolnshire gets the @@@@ end of the stick. Gutted. Look credible but hopefully wrong.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like its wrong:

http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/travel-information/Eureka/How-it-will-affect-you/

 

[John @ home]

Look credible but hopefully wrong.

Sorry, it's not wrong. The announcement is on the East Coast site.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

unless other services are trimmed this will not save 5 units. Turning back at Newark will probably only save one. So unless London to York or other routes lose out they need more sets.

I don't think the services which were due to go to Lincoln will run at all. The announcement says

Four additional services will be available in each direction between Newark and London King’s Cross
http://www.mediacentre.eastcoast.co...AST-COAST-EUREKA-TIMETABLE-PROPOSALS-238.aspx

but it doesn't say that these will be provided by trains running Newark - Kings Cross services. The purpose of the exercise is to save money, and substantial money is saved (£9 million a year, it is claimed) by not providing these services at all, but adding 4 stops in each direction to other services at Newark.

The announcement does not mention the York stoppers, which were planned for the hours in which the Lincoln trains were not due to run. I expect these have also been cancelled to achieve the £9 million pa. saving and release the 5 Class 180s.

 

[Failed Unit]

I suspect when all comes out in the wash what we will really get is a London to York every other hour with stops in Leeds services at Newark.

Is it just me that hates the way TOC's say 2 through services will be retained to Lincoln to make things sound better then they are? I may be old but that to me implies it should be 2 return services. To me they should just say 1 return journey per day will run.

 

[tbtc]

The announcement does not mention the York stoppers, which were planned for the hours in which the Lincoln trains were not due to run. I expect these have also been cancelled to achieve the £9 million pa. saving and release the 5 Class 180s.

No, which is a similar shame.

Lincoln gets the headlines, of course, but a lot of stations lose out (and a lot of stations end up with slower services due to trains stopping at Grantham/ Newark etc that would otherwise have been faster).

Pretty much any TOC (north of the Thames) could take 180s, but I personally think the best use would be for ScotRail to replace the 158 + 170 combinations on the Aberdeen services - this would then release two units elsewhere (and be operationally easier for guards etc than running two units coupled with no corridor connection) - e.g. ScotRail gain five 180s which releases five 158s and five 170s.

 

[Aictos]

Yes it is one return journey but TOCs don't think like that and techincally they are correct as they are two seperate though services,

I rather use them on the semi fast East Coasts ie London to York but ideally they would be far better going back to First Great Western to run the Cotswold services and use the HSTs on the West of England/South Wales/Cornwall services,

This makes best use of their top speed with the option of the Yorks being extended to Scarborough or some other seaside resort.

 

[WatcherZero]

No, which is a similar shame.

Lincoln gets the headlines, of course, but a lot of stations lose out (and a lot of stations end up with slower services due to trains stopping at Grantham/ Newark etc that would otherwise have been faster).

Pretty much any TOC (north of the Thames) could take 180s, but I personally think the best use would be for ScotRail to replace the 158 + 170 combinations on the Aberdeen services - this would then release two units elsewhere (and be operationally easier for guards etc than running two units coupled with no corridor connection) - e.g. ScotRail gain five 180s which releases five 158s and five 170s.

I thought they were trying to standardise their diesel fleet on 170's? Perhaps if another operator took the 180's they would gladly take any displaced 170's.

 

[37401]

Didnt Virgin reject them too?

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't think the 180's were ever planned to be used on the London - York services, I think this was planned to use 91's or HST's recovered from the among other things the Glasgow services.

The new proposed timetable may look something like this.
0000 Edinburgh calling at Doncaster, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Berwick, Edinburgh
0005 Leeds calling at Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Wakefield, Leeds.
0030 Edinburgh, calling Peterborough, Newark, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle and stations to Edinburgh
0035 Leeds calling at Stevenage, Grantham, Doncaster, Wakefield, Leeds
0100 Edinburgh calling at York, Darlington, Newcastle, Berwick, Edinburgh
0105 Leeds calling at Peterborough, Doncaster, Wakefeild, Leeds
0110 York calling at Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Doncaster, York
0130 Newcastle calling at Peterborough, Newark, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle
0135 Leeds calling at Stevenage, Grantham, Doncaster, Wakefield, Leeds.

just guessing but you get my point.

 

[route:oxford]

I could think of several train companies that would probably use them (well except FGW of course).

(A few ideas)

Chiltern for Wrexham and shropshire?

Maybe in a few years Chiltern for Oxford-Marylebone

 

[TheWalrus]

ideally they would be far better going back to First Great Western to run the Cotswold services and use the HSTs on the West of England/South Wales/Cornwall services,

Yes I agree! Or stick them on ones like the 1218 PAD-TAU and put the released HST on the cotswolds. Plus FGW need more trains from dec 2011 to enable an hourly north cotswolds - padd. So bias u may think I am, and bias I am.

Send them to FGW!

 

[jopsuk]

Split them between Hull and GC? Allow GC to standardise their fleet (to the dismay of many here maybe) and allow both to fully refurb to their own standards and have better cover/even run occasional services as doubles.

 

[Ivo]

Not surprised at all. I really did not Eureka to work anywhere near as well as East Coast were suggesting. But a little thought; if they were still NXEC, would they have cut the service? This is effectively a Government cut, after all.

As for the 180s? My vote goes to the Norwich-Liverpool service. How they can justify two cars is beyond me. Alternatively, and I know for a fact that Techniquest will slaughter me for this (!), but why not let us have them for the Wessex Main Line, and displace the 3-car 158s to the Norwich-Liverpool service?

 

[TheWalrus]

Maybe in a few years Chiltern for Oxford-Marylebone

Naa cos there's going to be 67 and refurbed mk3s for that with sliding doors for that route lol
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought they were trying to standardise their diesel fleet on 170's?

Well if they are getting fir of any 158s, I'd gladly see them down here in the West!

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

We don't want those unreliable buckets of bolts back down here on the West Country line, keep them up around Oxford or use them in the Cotswolds, but not here, keep them on the EC, give them to GC they seem to be having luck with them so far.

 

[TheWalrus]

It seems to me everyone wants the 180s for their own routes! routexford wants them on marylebone-oxford, i want them on my semi-fasts, and Ivo wants them on the Wessex Main Line! Looks like we will have to wait and see, but I can't see them going spare somehow! My guess is Northern may keep the ones they have, possibly add the other 2 and FGW keepsthe 7x142s. However whatever happens, I feel Northern is going to gain here, whether FGW do or not, is anyone's guess..