5 x 180s up for grabs

[Drimnagh Road]

The unlimited cash possessing WAG could be interested in two sets for their Premier Holyhead-Cardiff service.

This would allow for the replacement of the 57/3 & mk2s, Arriva at Chester are great at making the similar 175s work properly, the second set would provide an answer for the proposed second service from Cardiff-Holyhead, and perhaps most importantly of all would allow a call at Wrexham.

 

[TheWalrus]

We don't want those unreliable buckets of bolts back down here on the West Country line

I beg to differ. I believe they would be a prime candidate for a potential London-Taunton semi-fast, especially as the 0818 is withdrawn from December.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The unlimited cash possessing WAG could be interested in two sets for their Premier Holyhead-Cardiff service.

This would allow for the replacement of the 57/3 & mk2s, Arriva at Chester are great at making the similar 175s work properly, the second set would provide an answer for the proposed second service from Cardiff-Holyhead, and perhaps most importantly of all would allow a call at Wrexham.

Why replace the 57 + Mk2s? It's not like they need replacing, and it's a good train for the job I believe. If you can use a loco hauled set instead of a unit (which are currently in high demand), then you may as well. Plus I don't think a 180 would be able to cater for a restaurant service would it?

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

I beg to differ. I believe they would be a prime candidate for a potential London-Taunton semi-fast, especially as the 0818 is withdrawn from December.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Why replace the 57 + Mk2s? It's not like they need replacing, and it's a good train for the job I believe. If you can use a loco hauled set instead of a unit (which are currently in high demand), then you may as well. Plus I don't think a 180 would be able to cater for a restaurant service would it?

For someone who doesn't pay very much, compared to us down the line, please belt up! We already have to suffer slower journeys because of the blasted riff raff of minor stations between Pewsey & Reading demanding this that & the other! They want the extra trains they buy them.

Anyway the 180's were abysmal pieces of rubbish with a propensity to erupt into flames & generally go kaput. We don't want that non standard rubbish down here. We like our HSTs.

 

[Ivo]

However whatever happens, I feel Northern is going to gain here

!!!!!

That's a first!

Can I just add that I have never used a 180 before? (That's a good thing, right?)

 

[Big Chris]

if ATW could get two 180's 1 x North bound, 1x Southbound and allow 2 days at the weekends for maintenance; is that realistic long term for availability? It would allow the reversal at Chester with little fuss and Chester Depot have experience with the family in the form of the 175s

 

[tbtc]

It seems to me everyone wants the 180s for their own routes! routexford wants them on marylebone-oxford, i want them on my semi-fasts, and Ivo wants them on the Wessex Main Line!

...despite living in Yorkshire, I've suggested moving them to Scotland (as it would free up more units that are needed elsewhere).

The trouble with these units is that the class was far too small, and we're only talking about a few of them, meaning a sub-class of five units is going to be pretty uneconomical (is there really a TOC that needs only five units for one line?).

We all seem to dislike DFT meddling, but if the DFT were involved we'd not have all these daft wee classes like 175s/ 180s - we'd ideally have one big class of 170s and one big class of 222s (rather than 170/ 171/ 172/ 175/ 180/ 185/ 220/ 221/ 222 etc)

 

[Drsatan]

As FGW knows how to maintain the 180s, why not use them on Cardiff-Portsmouth services? During the evening rush hour most three car 158s leaving Southampton Central from personal experience are jam-packed. 180s have buffet cars, and Cardiff-Portsmouth services (which are technically intercity since they serve several major conurbations although they don't exceed 75mph), could do with one since Cardiff-Portsmouth takes about three hours end to end.

 

[Voyager 2093]

I think Chiltern Railways should try and apply for 1 or 2 180s for use on the Birmingham Snow Hill Line. It would be perfect and some 168s could be released.

 

[Drsatan]

I think Chiltern Railways should try and apply for 1 or 2 180s for use on the Birmingham Snow Hill Line. It would be perfect and some 168s could be released.

Except the costs of maintaining only one or two 180s would outweigh any other advantages. Besides Chiltern want to run 67s+Mk3s+DVTs on Marylebone-Birmingham SH trains.

If 5 180s were used on just a few Cardiff-Pompey services then 5 158s could be cascaded to strengthen Cardiff-Taunton and Bristol-Weymouth trains.

 

[Ivo]

I think Chiltern Railways should try and apply for 1 or 2 180s for use on the Birmingham Snow Hill Line. It would be perfect and some 168s could be released.

Because there is something lacking in this country called "common sense". And this proposal is an example of "common sense".

Psst: I suggested that already. Sorry!

N.B.: Presumably due to human error, I have quoted the wrong message. But I will not delete it as it will damage the next few posts in the thread. I meant to quote Drsatan. Sorry!

As FGW knows how to maintain the 180s, why not use them on Cardiff-Portsmouth services? During the evening rush hour most three car 158s leaving Southampton Central from personal experience are jam-packed. 180s have buffet cars, and Cardiff-Portsmouth services (which are technically intercity since they serve several major conurbations although they don't exceed 75mph), could do with one since Cardiff-Portsmouth takes about three hours end to end.

Another point actually; sod the 75mph argument. The 357s on my childhood line rarely get above 75, but they can clear 100. Indeed, the line is so stop-start that the average speed is only about 35-40 mph!

(Oh, and um, last I checked, they are almost always packed, not just in the evening peak!)

 

[Voyager 2093]

Hmm true. The 67s are due in two years. Cant wait for that. Lets hope they don't fail like the WSMR ones.

 

[Ivo]

Uh, I have to apologise there; it quoted the wrong message. I meant to quote the one above (as shows below). Sorry!

As FGW knows how to maintain the 180s, why not use them on Cardiff-Portsmouth services? During the evening rush hour most three car 158s leaving Southampton Central from personal experience are jam-packed. 180s have buffet cars, and Cardiff-Portsmouth services (which are technically intercity since they serve several major conurbations although they don't exceed 75mph), could do with one since Cardiff-Portsmouth takes about three hours end to end.

(180s on Snow Hill services would still be an interesting one, though. Not that I would be particularly pleased with it.)

Once again, sorry for messing up the thread

 

[Drsatan]

Uh, I have to apologise there; it quoted the wrong message. I meant to quote the one above. Sorry!



180s on Snow Hill services would still be an interesting one, though. Not that I would be particularly pleased with it.

No problem

I don't care that people complain that 180s shouldn't be used on Cardiff-Pompey trains since they won't be able to reach 125mph, passengers on that line need something better than a 158!

Maintenance shouldn't be too difficult since they'd be stationed at St Phillips Marsh which has maintained 180s in the past. Problems Phillips Marsh couldn't deal with could be dealt at Old Oak Common.

 

[ainsworth74]

passengers on that line need something better than a 158!

Ha something better! If only we could get the luxury of a 158 up here, 142s only for us!

 

[Ivo]

At least we have experienced 142s though. Not like the folk back home who are used to EMUs to the left, right and centre. I think my sis has been on a diesel train a grand total of four times - Norwich to Lowestoft and back, aged just shy of 7, and Paddington to Slough and back last month! In fact, barring the above Lowestoft journey, and a return run via Rye earlier that year (1997), I don't think I had either until July 2006...

Mind you, the same "folk" call 313s "budget trains". Now let's send a Pacer to London on a tour, and see what they make of it

 

[Voyager 2093]

Uh, I have to apologise there; it quoted the wrong message. I meant to quote the one above. Sorry!



180s on Snow Hill services would still be an interesting one, though. Not that I would be particularly pleased with it.

It would be an interesting one indeed... just imagine a 180 in Chiltern Railways Livery. Or even WSMR Livery.

 

[ainsworth74]

Now let's send a Pacer to London on a tour, and see what they make of it

Sounds good to me! Would love to see a 142 in KGX or any of the London terminals for that matter

 

[Ivo]

I just thought, there are a lot of services in the NSE area that could probably use Pacers. Examples would include Sudbury to Marks Tey (in multiple, i.e. two Pacers totalling four carriages), Sheerness (again in multiple; but run through EMUs to London in peaks/summer), Felixstowe (newly included in the NSE map with the current version), and the Bicester Town route. But of course, no-one wants ---- trains anywhere near London, so let's just forget that whole idea :roll:

 

[The Planner]

Naa cos there's going to be 67 and refurbed mk3s for that with sliding doors for that route lol

No they wont, 168s only for Oxford.
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The unlimited cash possessing WAG could be interested in two sets for their Premier Holyhead-Cardiff service.

They arent interested, it has already been asked of them in the past.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hmm true. The 67s are due in two years. Cant wait for that. Lets hope they don't fail like the WSMR ones.

Its not plural, unless they have procured some more, there is only the one set planned at the moment.

 

[jopsuk]

A variation on my first idea- if East Coast don't want to run the Lincoln services, why not sound out out GC and/or Hull and/or a.n.other Open Access operator about taking the paths and units?

 

[MCR247]

I am intrigued at some of the suggestions for where they should go. If you ask me, they should not go to Hull Trains or GC or WSMR. Why should they go to open access? We have mass overcrowding in some parts of the country and some people want to send them to Hull Trains?

 

[GNERman]

I think 1 unit will go to HT on short term lease to allow the unrdurbed and unreliveried units to get the treatment done...

 

[Failed Unit]

With the current delays to the 172's I strongly suspect for the short terms they will stay as they where they are ie with Northern until the cascade comes along that can formally realease them. The other 2 may cover GC or HT refurbs who knows.

One thing is for sure that I don't think any operator would really be rushing to take them, as other have said a small non-standard fleet isn't good. You need to staff that operate them which is an additional expense something I am sure FGW and East Coast have both done and factored into thier choice not to take them. HT are a 180 only fleet. GC have two forms of traction who knows they may decide to become a 180 fleet as well. But why would Scotrail or TPE want 5 non-standard units messing up thier operations. It you get a failed unit at Stirling, most stock can come along and shift it, not so easy with a 180!

Some other routes suggest will not work simply because the units are too slow for them. Norwich - Liverpool for example will result in an increased journey time as the 180's will be forced to run slower than the 158's.

 

[Crossforth]

What about Northern's York to Blackpool North services?

Although I think the Norwich to Liverpool route would benefit from the 180s.
I've been on that service from Manchester Piccadilly to Warrington a few times when it has been 4 car and I've had to stand as there is no room.

 

[Failed Unit]

What about Northern's York to Blackpool North services?

Although I think the Norwich to Liverpool route would benefit from the 180s.
I've been on that service from Manchester Piccadilly to Warrington a few times when it has been 4 car and I've had to stand as there is no room.

I have never seen a York - Blackpool service full at the Preston end, even with 3 cars. As for Norwich - Liverpool as mentioned above that will actually make the service slower than the current one.

 

[thefab444]

Although I think the Norwich to Liverpool route would benefit from the 180s.
I've been on that service from Manchester Piccadilly to Warrington a few times when it has been 4 car and I've had to stand as there is no room.

A Class 180 seats 226 in standard and 42 in first, so a total of 268 seats presuming first is declassified. Not entirely sure on the seating capacity of the refurbished EMT 158s, but presuming it is approximately 70 seats per coach that means a total of 280 seats in a four car formation, more than the 268 of a five car Class 180!

 

[Crossforth]

A Class 180 seats 226 in standard and 42 in first, so a total of 268 seats presuming first is declassified. Not entirely sure on the seating capacity of the refurbished EMT 158s, but presuming it is approximately 70 seats per coach that means a total of 280 seats in a four car formation, more than the 268 of a five car Class 180!

apologies, I assumed 5 coaches would be better than 4

I have never seen a York - Blackpool service full at the Preston end, even with 3 cards. As for Norwich - Liverpool as mentioned above that will actually make the service slower than the current one.

Certainly at peak times, it is busy around Leeds

 

[Failed Unit]

Certainly at peak times, it is busy around Leeds

Maybe it is but running a 5 coach train to Blackpool because of this is the wrong thing to do. Much better to run the 2x 158's for example to Halifax drop off the rear set at Halifax and send it back to Leeds to strengthen another peak time service. Scotrail do the same by dropping of coaches on Aberdeen services at Perth or Dundee in the peak. Unfortunately this distance is too far to get them back to Edinburgh and Glasgow for another peak service but it is better then sending a 5 coach train all the way to Aberdeen when the extra capacity is only needed for a short distance.

 

[northwichcat]

!!!!!

That's a first!

Saying Northern have gained from cascades is just the same as saying FGW gained by getting the 142s. DfT award Northern extra units then force them to send them to Scotrail then TPE cut back services between Manchester and Preston and Northern have to fill the gap and only 180s are available to fill the gap. West Yorkshire may have gained overall but the UK's third largest region (the North West) hasn't gained.

 

[philjo]

How about TPE using them for the Manchester-Scotland services. As they are 125mph units, they can then run at full line speed on the WCML.
This would release a few 185s for strengthening the core transpennine services between Manchester & Leeds. (or releasing 170s for use elsewhere.


Another thought : maybe Northern could swap a pacer with SWT which can use it to Lymington & Northern gain the 158 instead.