5D23 11.30 Holyhead to Chester ECS on Sundays

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Hi I am sure we have discussed this movement somewhere before but I cant find the thread and can't remember why it happens!

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P70261/2019/07/07/advanced

So could anyone enlighten me on

a) why they don't run this service as a passenger service even if it was limited stop, can you ever have too many services?

If the answer is Sunday staffing issues then

b) why don't they just double this up on another earlier / later service and split it at Chester removing the need for a driver for it at all?

 

[PHILIPE]

This unit has to be rushed back to Chester after working 0927 ex Crewe to form a portion of the 1331 Chester to Birmingham International. A conductor would be required to run it as a passenger service. There are similar ECSs all over the system.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Thanks for the info, it makes sense now.

I couldn't understand why it just didn't attach to one of the other services going that way even if locked out.

I didn't think about the possibility of it being needed somewhere else in a hurry.

Thank you

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's sandwiched between two limited stop Virgin services, so no point really.
The second one can be used to connect into the Birmingham service.
But any long distance ECS just adds unnecessarily to costs for no revenue benefit.
Sunday services are thin enough as it is.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

But any long distance ECS just adds unnecessarily to costs for no revenue benefit.

Not actually sure I understand where you are coming from with the comment above?

This is an almost 100 mile ECS ?

 

[sonic2009]

Does Holyhead have a TFW Staff Depot for guards?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Does Holyhead have a TFW Staff Depot for guards?

Yes it does.

 

[sonic2009]

Yes it does.

So 1D11 must be worked by a Holyhead Guard then?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not actually sure I understand where you are coming from with the comment above?
This is an almost 100 mile ECS ?

Yes indeed.
There are longer runs (eg Edinburgh-Newcastle. I think there's a Manchester-Euston somewhere, and EMT's Nottingham-Liverpool).
TfW run Chester-Manchester ECS as well, via a variety of routes.
They are all justified seemingly by depot and staffing constraints, to get stock in position.
My point really is that any ECS generates cost for the TOC without any revenue being generated, so it's an overhead on the service cost.
I assume they have tried to minimise the ECS within the service spec and technical constraints.
The alternative might be even more costly (extra depots etc).
Otherwise it's like the grumbling there used to be about loaded coal trains passing each other on the same line!
That's one anomaly that won't be happening much in the future.

 

[PHILIPE]

This unit has to be rushed back to Chester after working 0927 ex Crewe to form a portion of the 1331 Chester to Birmingham International. A conductor would be required to run it as a passenger service. There are similar ECSs all over the system.

Just an apology. I got my times mixed up and should have 0827 (1D11) which the OP has correctly observed

 

[306024]

Some longer distance ECS trains are obviously there for a reason, even if it isn't immediately apparent. But the need for that ECS can change from one timetable to the next for all sorts of reasons. Once you've made an ECS into a passenger train it makes it much harder to subsequently remove it again.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Some longer distance ECS trains are obviously there for a reason, even if it isn't immediately apparent. But the need for that ECS can change from one timetable to the next for all sorts of reasons. Once you've made an ECS into a passenger train it makes it much harder to subsequently remove it again.

Absolutely , I quite understand but couldn't understand why they didn't just attach it to something else that was Chester bound later and split it on arrival. Which would mean it wouldnt even need a driver , Or just leave it at Holyhead until needed later or on Monday.

The thought it may be needed to form part of another service somewhere further down the line didn't occur to me.

Thanks to @PHILIPE for pointing it out and I will try a bit more lateral thinking when trying to understand time tabling in future.

 

[dk1]

It's sandwiched between two limited stop Virgin services, so no point really.
The second one can be used to connect into the Birmingham service.
But any long distance ECS just adds unnecessarily to costs for no revenue benefit.
Sunday services are thin enough as it is.

I notice that those two Virgin services can get very busy indeed. The 11:50 is regularly full&standing from Bangor.

 

[VT 390]

I notice that those two Virgin services can get very busy indeed. The 11:50 is regularly full&standing from Bangor.

Does the 11:50 connect with a ferry service though?

 

[dk1]

Does the 11:50 connect with a ferry service though?

Most likely. Not been across the Irish Sea for a while so out of touch with shipping schedules.

 

[krus_aragon]

Does the 11:50 connect with a ferry service though?

Irish Ferries are scheduled to arrive at Holyhead at 11:20, and Stenna at 11:50. With a half-hour official connection time, the 11:50 VT departure is a connection for the first ferry. Passengers on the second will connect with the 12:50 VT.

If the 11:30 ECS were to run in passenger service, it wouldn't be an official connection for ferry passengers, but could be well-loaded on days that the ferry arrives early.

 

[VT 390]

Irish Ferries are scheduled to arrive at Holyhead at 11:20, and Stenna at 11:50. With a half-hour official connection time, the 11:50 VT departure is a connection for the first ferry. Passengers on the second will connect with the 12:50 VT.

If the 11:30 ECS were to run in passenger service, it wouldn't be an official connection for ferry passengers, but could be well-loaded on days that the ferry arrives early.

The 11:30 could also be good at allowing non-ferry passengers at getting a seat.

 

[craigybagel]

So 1D11 must be worked by a Holyhead Guard then?

Not necessarily, it could be worked by a Chester or Llandudno Junction guard who is otherwise unavailable after arriving at Holyhead, be it through needing to work a later train or requiring a PNB.

TfW run Chester-Manchester ECS as well, via a variety of routes.

Only sort of - none of the units for the Chester Manchester services run ECS normally. The first arrival at Manchester and last departure from there run in service, non stop via Northwich. On a Saturday night a unit stables at Piccadilly (it comes in from the Chester route and goes to South Wales on the Sunday).

There is however an ECS from Crewe to Manchester every morning, and a return in the evening - both of which are booked via one of 4 different routes (Direct via Handforth, via Styal, via Stoke or via Warrington). The evening service is a 158 that after stopping at Crewe to drop off a guard runs into the depot there. The morning unit however is a 175, which arrives at Crewe having been part of a separate ECS move from Chester.

Irish Ferries are scheduled to arrive at Holyhead at 11:20, and Stenna at 11:50. With a half-hour official connection time, the 11:50 VT departure is a connection for the first ferry. Passengers on the second will connect with the 12:50 VT.

If the 11:30 ECS were to run in passenger service, it wouldn't be an official connection for ferry passengers, but could be well-loaded on days that the ferry arrives early.

Not a hope of the ferry arriving early enough for people to make that connection. The ferry rarely arrives early anyway (Irish Ferries aren't renowned for wasting money burning fuel unnecessarily) and once you add the need to get a bus from the ferry to the terminal there really isn't much hope......

 

[krus_aragon]

Not a hope of the ferry arriving early enough for people to make that connection. The ferry rarely arrives early anyway (Irish Ferries aren't renowned for wasting money burning fuel unnecessarily) and once you add the need to get a bus from the ferry to the terminal there really isn't much hope...

I think a part of my brain is still romantically latched on to the prompt walk-on walk-off days of the HSS.