5x Class 153 conversion to bike and baggage vans for Scotrail

[Journeyman]

Scotrail, Northern and Greater Anglia only use LCHS with diesel locos because there's a shortage of suitable DMUs for their services.

Absolutely - and in all those cases they'll be gone very soon, because it's an expensive, troublesome and inconvenient option.

 

[xotGD]

As it’s nearly 30 years ago it doesn’t really matter that much, but I’m intrigued as to the reason for putting the extra coach in the middle when it surely would have been a lot less hassle to put it on one end?!

If they'd added the extra coach at the end, you would have sets with a different number on each end. Spotters and unit scratchers would have had a meltdown!

The moral of the story is always count units by individual vehicle, not by set number.

 

[PHILIPE]

If they'd added the extra coach at the end, you would have sets with a different number on each end. Spotters and unit scratchers would have had a meltdown!

The moral of the story is always count units by individual vehicle, not by set number.

When GWR have used hybrid 153+150 due to a 150 damaged it has been numbered 153399. One number for whole unit

 

[sprinterguy]

As it’s nearly 30 years ago it doesn’t really matter that much, but I’m intrigued as to the reason for putting the extra coach in the middle when it surely would have been a lot less hassle to put it on one end?!

It's possible that the units that were split were not fitted with RETB, so it was more straightforward to insert them into the centre of units that already carried RETB equipment.

 

[GrimShady]

Scotrail, Northern and Greater Anglia only use LCHS with diesel locos because there's a shortage of suitable DMUs for their services.

Which strangely enough is what we have here. DMUs coming to the end of their working life with no replacement.

I'd be interested to know which DMUs would be suitable for cascading if that's to be the case? Everything else seems to be of the same vintage, under powered or not cleared. Maybe the 159 Turbos fitted out differently? Not much newer than the 156s.

I still think the easy option for another decade is HSTs if the services will indeed be split. Plenty around and much cheaper than new.

 

[Altnabreac]

Once Dunblane - Dundee and Maryhill are wired in CP6 the WHL stock

True enough - but the routes needing new DMUs will mostly be of similar character to the West Highland Line, so something geared towards that kind of market wouldn't be unreasonable.

People do notice the increased level of vibration on DMUs compared to LHCS - not all the time, but when the traction is working hard it's very noticeable. It seems to be a particular issue on the HML because, for some reason, going flat out up Slochd seems to excite the resonant frequency of some part of the internal fittings, which gets very tedious. But that's an edge case, pretty much limited to that rolling stock on that particular part of the network.

By and large, the travelling public will prefer any new train to any old train, simply because it isn't worn out. A refurbished Pacer would probably be fairly popular for that reason!

I think that the next Franchise (or public concession) will broadly be procuring three new types of train:
A follow up order of 385s or similar EMUs to cover continuing electrification to EK / Maryhill / Perth.
A hybrid Intercity Unit to replace HSTs
A DMU to cover WHL, Stranraer, Kyle, Far North.

It should be possible for the DMU to have a specific Scenic spec with basic catering facilities, good table / window alignment, decent bike storage etc. Stadler style high windows would be a bonus. It won't be Loco Hauled though. Just not going to happen.

 

[Journeyman]

Which strangely enough is what we have here. DMUs coming to the end of their working life with no replacement.

I'd be interested to know which DMUs would be suitable for cascading if that's to be the case? Everything else seems to be of the same vintage, under powered or not cleared. Maybe the 159 Turbos fitted out differently? Not much newer than the 156s.

I still think the easy option for another decade is HSTs if the services will indeed be split. Plenty around and much cheaper than new.

The DMU shortage is a short-term thing that will be eased by further electrification and new train deliveries. There's a number of options available over the next few years, including 158s and 175s for cascade, and the CAF Civity, Stadler FLIRT and Hitachi bi-modes. The Voyagers and Meridians will be available before long as well, as their replacement on the MML and CrossCountry has been mandated by the DfT.

Given the massive problems that ScotRail have had introducing HSTs, I think that option is an absolute no-goer for a route like the WHL, especially because of the lack of flexibility (they'll be virtually empty in winter, and can't be split for FW/Oban) and the massive fuel consumption. For the umpteenth time, the WHL makes a massive loss, and anything which increases the cost of operation is not viable.

Quite apart from anything else, the maximum speed on much of the WHL is 40mph! How massively inefficient is an HST going to be operating at that speed?

 

[Journeyman]

Once Dunblane - Dundee and Maryhill are wired in CP6 the WHL stock


I think that the next Franchise (or public concession) will broadly be procuring three new types of train:
A follow up order of 385s or similar EMUs to cover continuing electrification to EK / Maryhill / Perth.
A hybrid Intercity Unit to replace HSTs
A DMU to cover WHL, Stranraer, Kyle, Far North.

It should be possible for the DMU to have a specific Scenic spec with basic catering facilities, good table / window alignment, decent bike storage etc. Stadler style high windows would be a bonus. It won't be Loco Hauled though. Just not going to happen.

Spot on. Given the nature of the remaining routes they'll be used on, a decent spec long-distance DMU will probably be justifiable as the 156s hit life expiry. But yeah...loco hauled? No chance. It's just not economical, flexible or practical enough.

 

[capital12]

If they'd added the extra coach at the end, you would have sets with a different number on each end. Spotters and unit scratchers would have had a meltdown!

The moral of the story is always count units by individual vehicle, not by set number.

I would think it easier to change a couple of vinyl numbers than all the extra shunting!

 

[capital12]

It's possible that the units that were split were not fitted with RETB, so it was more straightforward to insert them into the centre of units that already carried RETB equipment.

Yeah, that probably makes some sense - I’d forgotten about the RETB.

 

[GrimShady]

The DMU shortage is a short-term thing that will be eased by further electrification and new train deliveries. There's a number of options available over the next few years, including 158s and 175s for cascade, and the CAF Civity, Stadler FLIRT and Hitachi bi-modes. The Voyagers and Meridians will be available before long as well, as their replacement on the MML and CrossCountry has been mandated by the DfT.

Given the massive problems that ScotRail have had introducing HSTs, I think that option is an absolute no-goer for a route like the WHL, especially because of the lack of flexibility (they'll be virtually empty in winter, and can't be split for FW/Oban) and the massive fuel consumption. For the umpteenth time, the WHL makes a massive loss, and anything which increases the cost of operation is not viable.

Quite apart from anything else, the maximum speed on much of the WHL is 40mph! How massively inefficient is an HST going to be operating at that speed?

158s are not much younger, 175s, maybe are the even cleared? I highly doubt Voyagers will be an option given the fact they'd be over powered and lack gangway ends of portion working is to continue. Hitachi's have the same problem, no gangways. Stadler and CAF DMUs are still a small dedicated order which can't be economical. Also for the umpteenth time, yes it makes a loss because it's being run as a basic, no frills, not interested service. You got to spend money to make money which you can't do with crap products. Let's not forget the reduction in freight on the line which doesn't help the financial situation which is yet something else which isn't encouraged.

How inefficient is a 125mph Voyager or Meridians going to be at 40mph! Even 37/4s are rated up 80mph

 

[Journeyman]

158s are not much younger, 175s, maybe are the even cleared? I highly doubt Voyagers will be an option given the fact they'd be over powered and lack gangway ends of portion working is to continue. Hitachi's have the same problem, no gangways. Stadler and CAF DMUs are still a small dedicated order which can't be economical. Also for the umpteenth time, yes it makes a loss because it's being run as a basic, no frills, not interested service. You got to spend money to make money which you can't do with crap products. Let's not forget the reduction in freight on the line which doesn't help the financial situation which is yet something else which isn't encouraged.

How inefficient is a 125mph Voyager or Meridians going to be at 40mph! Even 37/4s are rated up 80mph

• 175s can probably be cleared fairly easily, the bodyshell is a very similar shape and size to the 156.
• Voyagers probably aren't ideal but are easily a better solution than HSTs, as portion working can continue.
• It's run as a basic, no-frills product because it makes a loss, not the other way around. I don't think you get the economics of it at all. Luxuries cost money and won't make a huge amount of difference to the number of people using it. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with what's on offer. You can only invest if you're sure you'll get a return on your investment. Providing dedicated, luxurious rolling stock will cost money ScotRail don't have, and will not generate shedloads of money in return. Catering services are being cut back all over the place, even on very busy services, because they don't generate enough revenue to make them worth providing. They certainly won't attract hundreds of new passengers who currently aren't travelling because it's a 156 with a basic catering trolley. You're thinking about this with an enthusiast hat on; normals don't think like that.
• If you're complaining about small, dedicated orders of DMUs, why is that any different to small, dedicated orders of coaching stock? ScotRail will still have a number of other DMU-operated routes they need to cover, so the order can be big enough to cover all of them, which is of course exactly how deploying brand-new 156s was justified in the first place.

 

[GrimShady]

• It's run as a basic, no-frills product because it makes a loss, not the other way around. I don't think you get the economics of it at all. Luxuries cost money and won't make a huge amount of difference to the number of people using it. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with what's on offer. You can only invest if you're sure you'll get a return on your investment. Providing dedicated, luxurious rolling stock will cost money ScotRail don't have, and will not generate shedloads of money in return. Catering services are being cut back all over the place, even on very busy services, because they don't generate enough revenue to make them worth providing. They certainly won't attract hundreds of new passengers who currently aren't travelling because it's a 156 with a basic catering trolley. You're thinking about this with an enthusiast hat on; normals don't think like that.
• If you're complaining about small, dedicated orders of DMUs, why is that any different to small, dedicated orders of coaching stock? ScotRail will still have a number of other DMU-operated routes they need to cover, so the order can be big enough to cover all of them, which is of course exactly how deploying brand-new 156s was justified in the first place.

Nobody's talking about running a micro version of the Royal Scotsman. A more modern train with better seating and half decent catering is all that's required instead of the basic tunnocks teacake presently available.

Your missing the point of the potential here. I know lots of people (locals) that choose the coach over the train due to the crap seats. The service should be at least equal to what the coach can provide. I very much doubt anyone has bothered at looking at the economics of providing anything more than the basic minimum because that's how it's viewed, with narrow vision.

I don't believe is was complaining, merely stating that a DMU is a much more complicated machine than a coach. Coach's which can easily be maintained along with the CS versions.

It will be interesting to see what the outcome of the 153 addition will be. It's still a step in the right direction. I do think you'll see an increase in patronage and a higher satisfaction. Hopefully Cal Mac will get the next franchise. They are very interested in improving the entire tourist package.

It well known (if you come from Oban) what the oldest clapped out train in Queen Street will be the WHL service.

 

[The_Engineer]

My experience - two or three years ago now, I holidayed in Fort William and flew from the Isle of Man to Glasgow airport. I am of limited mobility, so although I LOVE the train journey from Glasgow to Fort William I decided against the train, but rather booked us seats on the coach direct from Glasgow Airport. It was high season but the although the coach was close to full both ways it was a comfortable and pleasant journey.

I had worked a lot in Glasgow over the previous few years, and so I was aware of the summer crowding on the trains. Because of this, taking the coach was a no-brainer given it avoided a further transport change in Glasgow. If the train journey promised to be more pleasant I would probably have taken the train. New trains with more capacity and facilities really are needed.

 

[sprinterguy]

It well known (if you come from Oban) what the oldest clapped out train in Queen Street will be the WHL service.

I'm not sure where your evidence is that they are clapped out: They're dated internally, but always appear clean and well maintained in my experience and are robust and reliable trains. The Scotrail class 156s were, in autumn 2016 which is the most recent data I have to hand, the 6th most reliable Sprinter fleet in the country out of 23 (Significantly ahead of Scotrail's own class 158s). This also put them ahead of the slightly more modern Network Turbo class 165/166 fleets though a little behind the majority of the post-privatisation class 170/171/172 Turbostar fleets.

West Highland services aren't renowned for a high failure rate as far as I am aware, and as Scotrail keep on proving you can run class 156s into landslides, rock falls and floods and still put them back together again!

 

[Journeyman]

Nobody's talking about running a micro version of the Royal Scotsman. A more modern train with better seating and half decent catering is all that's required instead of the basic tunnocks teacake presently available.

I'm not disputing that at all - what I am disputing is your ridiculous "loco-hauled coaches are always superior to DMUs and nothing else will do" argument. It's possible to provide an enhanced and decent quality service with DMUs, which is what will happen at some point.

Your missing the point of the potential here. I know lots of people (locals) that choose the coach over the train due to the crap seats. The service should be at least equal to what the coach can provide. I very much doubt anyone has bothered at looking at the economics of providing anything more than the basic minimum because that's how it's viewed, with narrow vision.

Lots of people will take the bus because it's quicker, or because it's free for people with concession passes. You pays your money, you takes your choice. Plenty of people do like what's on offer and take the train, which is why they're often crowded. I consider the WHL's current service to be vastly preferable to a coach, and I don't believe it's been neglected or that there's anything fundamentally wrong with the product. Every time I've used it, the trains have been healthily loaded and the staff on board are great, really helpful and enthusiastic and willing to go the extra mile for people on board.

I don't believe is was complaining, merely stating that a DMU is a much more complicated machine than a coach. Coach's which can easily be maintained along with the CS versions.

...and are much more inefficient to operate, completely screwing the economics. At quiet times, lots of WHL trains, especially the Oban workings that don't split for a FW portion, are 2-car trains. Hauling more than two cars when not needed, or hauling 2 cars with a 3000hp loco, is ridiculously inefficient. DMUs will have common usage and maintenance with the rest of the ScotRail fleet for the other long-distance marginally-economic routes.

It will be interesting to see what the outcome of the 153 addition will be. It's still a step in the right direction. I do think you'll see an increase in patronage and a higher satisfaction. Hopefully Cal Mac will get the next franchise. They are very interested in improving the entire tourist package.

It well known (if you come from Oban) what the oldest clapped out train in Queen Street will be the WHL service.

Have CalMac shown any interest in the franchise? I doubt they have. As a public sector body they're currently not allowed to bid, and would almost certainly fall foul of competition legislation even if they were.

There's nothing "clapped out" about 156s. You just don't like DMUs. Just admit that it's a personal preference. Loads of us don't have a problem with them, including the huge army of tourists that descend upon the WHL each year.

 

[Journeyman]

I'm not sure where your evidence is that they are clapped out: They're dated internally, but always appear clean and well maintained in my experience and are robust and reliable trains. The Scotrail class 156s were, in autumn 2016 which is the most recent data I have to hand, the 6th most reliable Sprinter fleet in the country out of 23 (Significantly ahead of Scotrail's own class 158s). This also put them ahead of the slightly more modern Network Turbo class 165/166 fleets though a little behind the majority of the post-privatisation class 170/171/172 Turbostar fleets.

West Highland services aren't renowned for a high failure rate as far as I am aware, and as Scotrail keep on proving you can run class 156s into landslides, rock falls and floods and still put them back together again!

Absolutely agree - while they're a bit noisy and a little threadbare here and there, I'd certainly not say the 156 is "clapped out". They're built like tanks, they have a good interior layout, there's decent space for luggage and bikes, the seats are pretty comfortable, they're bright and feel spacious and open inside, and the huge windows give absolutely fantastic views.

 

[Grinner]

Have CalMac shown any interest in the franchise? I doubt they have. As a public sector body they're currently not allowed to bid, and would almost certainly fall foul of competition legislation even if they were.

The Scottish Government has changed the law (or possibly is in the process of changing the law, I'm not quite up to speed) to allow public sector bodies to bid for franshies in future. And CalMac already bid for franchises, that's exactly how the ferry contract is run. They had to be separated from CMAL (who own the ferries and ports) to make things compliant with competition legislation, but since train operators don't own the trains that wouldn't be an issue here.

 

[Altnabreac]

The Scottish Government has changed the law (or possibly is in the process of changing the law, I'm not quite up to speed) to allow public sector bodies to bid for franshies in future. And CalMac already bid for franchises, that's exactly how the ferry contract is run. They had to be separated from CMAL (who own the ferries and ports) to make things compliant with competition legislation, but since train operators don't own the trains that wouldn't be an issue here.

That legislation is reserved to Westminster so it is the UK Government that has changed the law at the request of the Scottish Government so a public sector body can bid for the next franchise. Whether that body is Calmac or some other public sector body is unclear as the new franchise is still years away.

 

[haggishunter]

I don’t think anyone can deny that even compared to the North Highland 158s the current condition of the 156s on the WHL is a poorer passenger experience.

Perhaps a question is why can other countries do so much more with world class scenic lines? Are they more viable because of graduated service levels with a wider range of prices that better maximise the revenue potential?

Is it a structural problem with way thing are organised in the UK. The set up of private rolling stock companies caused the loss of the Young Explorer trains and they mitigated many of the issues with space and capacity on the 156s and 158s when they run, because people with bulky gear and bikes actively picked these services.

On the economic case what has been the cost / benfift of doubling the Oban service? What if any infrastructure is required to increase Ft William to 6 ScotRail services a day?

 

[GrimShady]

I'm not disputing that at all - what I am disputing is your ridiculous "loco-hauled coaches are always superior to DMUs and nothing else will do" argument. It's possible to provide an enhanced and decent quality service with DMUs, which is what will happen at some point.



Lots of people will take the bus because it's quicker, or because it's free for people with concession passes. You pays your money, you takes your choice. Plenty of people do like what's on offer and take the train, which is why they're often crowded. I consider the WHL's current service to be vastly preferable to a coach, and I don't believe it's been neglected or that there's anything fundamentally wrong with the product. Every time I've used it, the trains have been healthily loaded and the staff on board are great, really helpful and enthusiastic and willing to go the extra mile for people on board.



...and are much more inefficient to operate, completely screwing the economics. At quiet times, lots of WHL trains, especially the Oban workings that don't split for a FW portion, are 2-car trains. Hauling more than two cars when not needed, or hauling 2 cars with a 3000hp loco, is ridiculously inefficient. DMUs will have common usage and maintenance with the rest of the ScotRail fleet for the other long-distance marginally-economic routes.



Have CalMac shown any interest in the franchise? I doubt they have. As a public sector body they're currently not allowed to bid, and would almost certainly fall foul of competition legislation even if they were.

There's nothing "clapped out" about 156s. You just don't like DMUs. Just admit that it's a personal preference. Loads of us don't have a problem with them, including the huge army of tourists that descend upon the WHL each year.

Where at any stage have I said "nothing else will do", I have simply said the on the whole the ambiance of LHCS is superior to a DMU especially one that's pushing 30 years and has had nothing but some new seat covers and some "refreshed" lighting.

As someone who has used the service regularly over the last 30 years I can assure you the overall opinion of the stock is very poor!

When did the staff come into this?

Don't think I've ever said we need a Type 5 loco when Type 3s perform perfectly well. LHCS maybes pipe dream but I see no harm in discussing it or indeed evaluating bringing it back.

Yes they are clapped out! I dont mind DMUs, for example I much prefered 170s on the E&G compared to 380s even if they are good perfomers. Your projecting here, maybe you have a thing against LHCS?

For every one person you can find satisfied, I can point to many, many others that aren't! Constantly I hear complaints of poor seats, lack of luggage space, noise, freezing in the winter the list goes on. My extended family for example won't use the service any more due to all these issues. It took them 30 years just to erect a small platform shelter (Oban) for godsake lol. I can't believe in 2018 people are defending such poor quality saloons that were basic in 1989! Try using these things on a regular basis and even you will tire of them.

With regard to Cal Mac, changes are coming in the future my friend.

 

[NotATrainspott]

A new self-powered multiple-unit with relatively minor tweaks for scenic operation is all that any reasonable person would expect for a 156 replacement. What's important is that the entire train is optimised for the routes it's going to run on, rather than being generic across all different routes. It's quite reasonable to fit in a few extra rows of seats and destroy window alignment on most commuter trains, since the view isn't really that important on those services. For the scenic fleet, it would have to be the case that fewer seats were put in than were actually possible, simply so that all of the seats which did exist had enough space for families to sit for several hours with a good view of the outside.

There really aren't any other trains on the GB network which could be cascaded over to the WHL once the 156s are gone. Remember that we're talking about the 2020-2025 timescale, where the earliest post-privatisation diesel stock is going to be reaching the end of their working lives. Very few DMU fleets have been introduced post-privatisation, and market dynamics and the relatively recent introduction of the Sprinters meant that they were primarily go-anywhere commuter/regional trains rather than long distance ones. There's going to be much more demand for that sort of train, without any modification, to be used on regional and suburban services across the UK. All of the Turbostars and 185s going spare would have no trouble finding work on the Northern or south-west England rail networks.

 

[GrimShady]

I'm not sure where your evidence is that they are clapped out: They're dated internally, but always appear clean and well maintained in my experience and are robust and reliable trains. The Scotrail class 156s were, in autumn 2016 which is the most recent data I have to hand, the 6th most reliable Sprinter fleet in the country out of 23 (Significantly ahead of Scotrail's own class 158s). This also put them ahead of the slightly more modern Network Turbo class 165/166 fleets though a little behind the majority of the post-privatisation class 170/171/172 Turbostar fleets.

West Highland services aren't renowned for a high failure rate as far as I am aware, and as Scotrail keep on proving you can run class 156s into landslides, rock falls and floods and still put them back together again!

By traveling on them SprinterGuy, I suppose I should clarify my position of "clapped out" is more to do with the saloon than the underfloor equipment.

Do hope you don't take offence to my criticism of your name sake.

Still took a 37 to rescue the landslide unit though?

 

[GrimShady]

I don’t think anyone can deny that even compared to the North Highland 158s the current condition of the 156s on the WHL is a poorer passenger experience.

Perhaps a question is why can other countries do so much more with world class scenic lines? Are they more viable because of graduated service levels with a wider range of prices that better maximise the revenue potential?

Is it a structural problem with way thing are organised in the UK. The set up of private rolling stock companies caused the loss of the Young Explorer trains and they mitigated many of the issues with space and capacity on the 156s and 158s when they run, because people with bulky gear and bikes actively picked these services.

On the economic case what has been the cost / benfift of doubling the Oban service? What if any infrastructure is required to increase Ft William to 6 ScotRail services a day?

Well said.

 

[GrimShady]

CalMac proof. I wasn't aware it had been made public.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-44315443

Time will tell

 

[47271]

The story's been out there for a quite a bit. Someone on here photoshopped a 170 into Macbraynes livery a while back but I can't seem to find it now.

Anyway, the similarities are impressive. A day to day operation overwhelmed by demand, especially in the summer months, a good proportion of the fleet too small and no longer fit for purpose, serious technical challenges around introduction of new sections of the fleet, and conflicts and failures around fixed infrastructure used to support services.

They would understand Scotrail very well!

 

[Macwomble]

Someone on here photoshopped a 170 into Macbraynes livery a while back

This one

Not my original, of course.

 

[47271]

This one View attachment 51089

Not my original, of course.

That's the one, thank you. Hideous but very funny.

 

[Journeyman]

Where at any stage have I said "nothing else will do", I have simply said the on the whole the ambiance of LHCS is superior to a DMU especially one that's pushing 30 years and has had nothing but some new seat covers and some "refreshed" lighting.

You've rubbished every suggestion everyone has made about DMUs and have said you think only LHCS and HSTs will do.

As someone who has used the service regularly over the last 30 years I can assure you the overall opinion of the stock is very poor!

In some places it is, and that's fair enough, but that opinion is not universal. The point I'm making is that the 156s don't appear to be putting significant numbers of people off, and that super-duper luxury trains will need to pay for themselves by attracting huge amounts of new business, which I doubt they will. There's a limit to how much you can invest if you're not going to get the bums on seats.

When did the staff come into this?

Nowhere in particular, I just think it happens to be a particular strength of WHL services, so I thought I'd mention it.

Don't think I've ever said we need a Type 5 loco when Type 3s perform perfectly well. LHCS maybes pipe dream but I see no harm in discussing it or indeed evaluating bringing it back.

Errr...which type 3s would those be? There's a tiny handful of 37/4s registered on the mainline, and they're chronically unreliable. Have you seen how often they've broken down on Cumbrian Coast services?

The only other locos in that power range are the Cal Sleeper 73/9s, which have had more than enough issues of their own, and even when they're all working, there's none spare during the day when they'd be needed. So where are suitable locos coming from?

Yes they are clapped out! I dont mind DMUs, for example I much prefered 170s on the E&G compared to 380s even if they are good perfomers. Your projecting here, maybe you have a thing against LHCS?

I'm not enough of a wibbling anorak to care. A good train is a good train, and a bad train is a bad train, and it has nothing to do with what powers it, be it coal, hydrogen, plutonium, fairy dust or rocking horse poo. I have my personal favourite types of train that I love and am nostalgic about, and I'm an enthusiast, but I have my business hat on here. The economic case for LHCS on a line like the West Highland is very, very poor.

For every one person you can find satisfied, I can point to many, many others that aren't! Constantly I hear complaints of poor seats, lack of luggage space, noise, freezing in the winter the list goes on. My extended family for example won't use the service any more due to all these issues. It took them 30 years just to erect a small platform shelter (Oban) for godsake lol. I can't believe in 2018 people are defending such poor quality saloons that were basic in 1989! Try using these things on a regular basis and even you will tire of them.

Fair enough, I'm not disputing those things, and yes, the 156s are long in the tooth and can't go on forever. But I think you're over-estimating what effect replacing them will have. A lot of people who use the bus probably do so for convenience, speed and price, and the WHL has so many infrastructure limitations that even with the best trains in the world, the bus will probably always be quicker. There are different people with different needs out there.

Agree Oban station isn't great, partly because usage has gone through the roof in recent years and the facilities haven't been upgraded to match, but that's a different matter entirely.

With regard to Cal Mac, changes are coming in the future my friend.

That's rather wishful thinking, but hey...

 

[InOban]

People love the 'full service' travel experience provided by our old school airlines and Calmac's big ships. But given the choice of a no frills service at a lower cost, the vast majority choose the low cost option whether flying, or indeed travelling to Orkney. And the lower cost model has allowed many more people to travel more often.

The Roscos will only buy trains which suit many different sorts of route, or can easily be adapted for different routes. So there is no chance of some special design for the Scottish rural lines. After all, similar basket case lines exist in England also.