I received the letter from TFL , and I am wondering if I should go ahead with a solicitor or try and respond to them on my own. Should I maybe respond first on my own and then approach a solicitor depending on the next response, or is it certain that I will be found guilty regardless of how I respond to the letter? Also, since I am guilty and I have done wrong, what kind of evidence am I supposed to show for exceptional reasons? I already approached a solicitor, but they advised they could only arrange the initial call starting next week. I must respond to the letter within 10 days, so my chances of engaging with a solicitor seem quite tight. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.
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60+ oyster card misuse
- Thread starter Mel05
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Thanks for starting a thread. You should be able to get some ideas from the numerous threads on this specific topic.
I am not sure they will show a (reasonably) sure-fire way of avoiding court though - even via a solicitor. Sorry not to be more positive.
I am not sure they will show a (reasonably) sure-fire way of avoiding court though - even via a solicitor. Sorry not to be more positive.
Thank you for the response. Yes, you are right I could have a look at other threads, it's only because I thought they deal with each case differently. Just wondering if there's anything I could say or mention in the letter that would make any difference.
You need to tell us a bit more about what happened for us to help. All we know so far is that you were caught misusing a 60+ pass and have now received a letter.
So it’s hard to see what advice we can give that may help you, other than to repeat the generic advice that TfL plays hardball in such situations (although we have seen a few final warnings being given, particularly when solicitors have got involved).
So it’s hard to see what advice we can give that may help you, other than to repeat the generic advice that TfL plays hardball in such situations (although we have seen a few final warnings being given, particularly when solicitors have got involved).
WesternLancer
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This depends on how you ended up using it - if you used it deliberately to avoid paying a fare on this and other trips there may be no evidence you can offer, only an apology.
But if you picked it up by mistake and this is some sort of one off then you could tell them that and explain how you will prevent it happening again.
You have not told us how you came to be using it.
It was kind of both. I had used it before, even though I knew I wasn't supposed to, and it is completely irrational that I still did. However, I didn't use it all the time, and my mom uses it as well. Recently, I got my student oyster card, but on that particular day, I messed up. I had both cards with me, and I touched in with my mom's, and then again, I touched out with my mom's even though I saw the inspection police right in front of me. When they stopped me, I didn't give up my mom's card straight away, but eventually, I had to give up. I was so furious that I made that mistake even though I had my oyster card with me!! I know it's all wrong, and I'm getting what I deserve. My question is should I just deal with this on my own and pay what I owe, whatever that comes to, or take the chances with a solicitor? Or should i just keep it simple and apologise and wait for what is coming for me?
Because I feel like I know I did wrong and they do too, is this letter more like a procedure because they already have made up their minds on what to do next?
Because I feel like I know I did wrong and they do too, is this letter more like a procedure because they already have made up their minds on what to do next?
WesternLancer
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I would suggest it depends on what is riding on your being convicted in court as to whether it’s worth you paying for a solicitor to try and help avoid that, given a solicitor’s fees could be c£500.
Eg if you plan on a career that such a conviction will make difficult to achieve it might be worth spending that money as it would be a small percentage of your future earning potential. But if you plan to be say self employed writer it’s probably not worth employing a solicitor.
Either way there is no guarantee a solicitor can stop them prosecuting you if they decide to do that.
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Transport for London take misuse of 60+ Oyster Cards very seriously and a prosecution under the TfL Bylaws is the usual outcome.
What happens next is TfL will send you a Verification Letter, normally within a couple of weeks. The letter will ask you to confirm or deny the incident and ask you to give any mitigating circumstances which you would like them to take into account when deciding how to proceed.
I suggest you mention the following in your reply:
- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and TfL's administrative costs in dealing with the matter
TfL generally do not offer out of court settlements although in some very limited circumstances they have been known to issue a final warning instead of prosecution. Prosecutions are normally done through what is called a Single Justice Procedure Notice. This means that if you plead guilty it is not necessary to attend court in person (unless you choose to do), you simply return the form to the court with any mitigation you want them to take into account and they will write to you with the details of the fine you have to pay.
If you are prosecuted and plead guilty (or are found guilty by the court) then you will have to pay:
- A fine based on your income (normally discounted by a third if you plead guilty at the earliest opportunity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- A contribution towards TfL's costs
- Compensation for the fares avoided
If you are found guilty then this is a criminal conviction. If you are prosecuted under the TfL Bylaws (which is what normally happens) then the conviction isn't normally recorded on the Police National Computer and won't normally appear on Basic DBS checks although we always advise people to be honest when asked if they have a conviction.
Only you can decide whether or not to use a solicitor. They can't change what has happened and they aren't cheap but they can often present your mitigation in a more compelling way than you might feel able to do yourself. Do note that if you use a solicitor and still get prosecuted you will still need to pay their fee.
Here's a link to TfL's Revenue Enforcement & Prosecutions Policy which you might find worth reading:
What happens next is TfL will send you a Verification Letter, normally within a couple of weeks. The letter will ask you to confirm or deny the incident and ask you to give any mitigating circumstances which you would like them to take into account when deciding how to proceed.
I suggest you mention the following in your reply:
- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and TfL's administrative costs in dealing with the matter
TfL generally do not offer out of court settlements although in some very limited circumstances they have been known to issue a final warning instead of prosecution. Prosecutions are normally done through what is called a Single Justice Procedure Notice. This means that if you plead guilty it is not necessary to attend court in person (unless you choose to do), you simply return the form to the court with any mitigation you want them to take into account and they will write to you with the details of the fine you have to pay.
If you are prosecuted and plead guilty (or are found guilty by the court) then you will have to pay:
- A fine based on your income (normally discounted by a third if you plead guilty at the earliest opportunity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- A contribution towards TfL's costs
- Compensation for the fares avoided
If you are found guilty then this is a criminal conviction. If you are prosecuted under the TfL Bylaws (which is what normally happens) then the conviction isn't normally recorded on the Police National Computer and won't normally appear on Basic DBS checks although we always advise people to be honest when asked if they have a conviction.
Only you can decide whether or not to use a solicitor. They can't change what has happened and they aren't cheap but they can often present your mitigation in a more compelling way than you might feel able to do yourself. Do note that if you use a solicitor and still get prosecuted you will still need to pay their fee.
Here's a link to TfL's Revenue Enforcement & Prosecutions Policy which you might find worth reading:
There is no “just pay what I owe”. TfL makes a binary decision to either:
- issue a warning (rare)
- Prosecute the offences in the magistrates court for a single specimen offence on the day you were caught. Other offences may be asked to be taken into consideration. There will be a fine linked to your income (this is the court’s sentence for the crime), compensation payable, prosecution costs to pay, and a surcharge.
Warnings are very rare but the chances are you have a much better chance of getting one if you use a solicitor. Going it alone almost inevitably results in being prosecuted.
Solicitors are expensive though.
You may wish to read carefully
www.railforums.co.uk
See post #20 for fees.
The advice @AlterEgo gives upthread is helpful in summarising the position in particular the question how damaging could a conviction be?
One problem I do see is that however you try and excuse it, is that being in possession of a freedom pass you are not entitled to shows premeditation.
We have had a number of cases where the person has claimed that both they and the freedom pass holder keep their passes in identical wallets by the front door and they picked up the wrong one. TfL will judge this for what it is.
Mistakenly used someone’s freedom pass
Hi, I accidentally used my mother’s Freedom Pass instead of my Student Oyster card. Both cards are kept in same colour wallets, stored together in the same drawer at home. Mistakenly, I picked up the wrong wallet without realising it until a TfL officer asked me to see my oyster card. I...
www.railforums.co.uk
See post #20 for fees.
The advice @AlterEgo gives upthread is helpful in summarising the position in particular the question how damaging could a conviction be?
One problem I do see is that however you try and excuse it, is that being in possession of a freedom pass you are not entitled to shows premeditation.
We have had a number of cases where the person has claimed that both they and the freedom pass holder keep their passes in identical wallets by the front door and they picked up the wrong one. TfL will judge this for what it is.
pidgeonlove
Member
hi OP, i was wondering if you have any update about your situation? as i am currently in the same boat, thank you
pidgeonlove
Member
thank you for replying! please keep this forum updated as i am anxious about receiving my letter still. did you write to them saying you plead guilty and you’re sorry etc?
Please start your own thread so we can help. (sorry, you have!)
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Spaceship323
Member
OP has already done so:https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/caught-using-freedom-pass-please-help.278868/
I did, I kept it very short. I am anxious too and will update you once I hear back.
Hi guys, I have received the letter attached from TFL. If someone could please advise me on what I should do next, it would be much appreciated. Thank you.
Attachments
notmyrealname
Member
Well, stating the obvious, they're taking you to court. You need to decide whether you're pleading guilty or not.
Then there's another form about your financial circumstances that they will use to base the fine on.
People who know more than I do should arrive later with more detailed advice and views on whether it's too late to try contacting TfL again before the hearing date.
Then there's another form about your financial circumstances that they will use to base the fine on.
People who know more than I do should arrive later with more detailed advice and views on whether it's too late to try contacting TfL again before the hearing date.
Fawkes Cat
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The easy way forward from here is to plead guilty. To do that, you have to go to court and they will also put to you other offences to be taken into consideration (that means other times that you travelled using your Mum's Freedom Pass). The court will then punish you with a fine and surcharge, plus costs and compensation. TFL have already said they will want £375 in costs (see page 3): the compensation will be the fares that you dodged: and the fine and surcharge will be based on your income which is why page 6 asks for details of your income and so on.
So you will have to pay quite a lot of money and you will have a criminal record - but it's still the easy thing to do.
The other possibility is to get a solicitor involved. That will cost you quite a lot of money, but they might be able to get TFL to drop the case and give you a warning instead. There's no guarantee that would work, and I don't think we have seen any cases where the solicitor is only involved once someone has have already been requisitioned to go to court so we have no knowledge of whether TFL would co-operate. But if avoiding a criminal record is really important to you, you might want to try it.
For most purposes, a criminal record isn't the end of the world - it's embarrassing to admit to, but that's the worst. But for some jobs (things like finance, or where there's a great deal of trust involved, so some things to do with medicine and personal care) do take it seriously. So you need to think about what you do now and what you want to do in the future to decide if avoiding a criminal record is really important to you.
Thank you for taking the time to respond. So it is definitive that I will get a criminal record! Regarding the forms they are asking me to fill out, should I send them by post before the hearing or take them with me to court? By other offences, do you mean the ones they already mention in the letter, or will there be more? Also, what additional papers should I include regarding income, things like payslips and bank statements? Thank you again.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
If you plead guilty, then by definition you'll have a criminal record! If you plead not guilty, it seems pretty certain you'll be convicted anyway (since you did what they accuse you of) - and so, of course, you get a criminal record that way too. The difference is likely to be that if you plead guilty you'll get a "discount" on the court fine (courts prefer people to own up, rather than say they're not guilty but get found guilty anyway, to and save time and hassle in court); but the criminal record is the same either way of course.
As others have said, the chance of persuading TfL to drop the charge and change their mind about the prosecution is minimal.You might have stood a small chance of that if you'd used a solicitor before it got to this stage (though that would have added hundreds of pounds to your costs for - very likely - no advantage). The chance of getting the charge dropped now, even with a solicitor, is probably close to zero; so not worth the cost involved unless you're so desperate to avoid a criminal record that you're prepared to throw money at any glimmer of hope.
Fawkes Cat
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There's instructions about this on the last page of what you have shown is, and it says that either posting or taking them with you is ok.
There may be others who can give better advice, but I would go for taking the form and evidence with you. That way there's less chance of the court office losing them.
My understanding (and again, others may know better) is that it will be the ones mentioned in the letter: it wouldn't be fair for them to spring something new on you without warning.
That sounds about right - and if you are a student or on any sort of benefits, proof of how much that brings in. I think it would be good if you could go back for a year, but within that, find what you can. The more recent documents will be the most important so definitely bring everything you can for the last couple of months. As it says on the last page that you showed us, bring your evidence with you to court. And try to have it sorted into an order that makes sense to you: the court will not appreciate getting a carrier bag of documents that are all mixed up.
WesternLancer
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And further to advice above make a copy of everything you send or hand over to the court etc. keep those copies long term. More than a year.
Yes. You are pleading guilty to a criminal offence. The matter will be in the court record but as it is a Bylaw offence it shouldn't be on the Police National Computer.
Hello, guys, I already had the court hearing and was fined. I paid for it straight away (fine + compensation + victim surcharge + costs), and the day after, I noticed I was credited back the fine amount. Also, the notice of fine and collection order I received a week later by post didn't mention the fine amount either, so it was the amount that I paid after they credited back the fine amount. Any idea why that happened?
You need to urgently speak to the Fines Officer to find out what is going on. The fine is your sentence and it must be completed (ie: paid).
But i did pay it and they credited back and on the letter its not there at all.
You still urgently need to speak to the Fines Officer. You were fined, and it needs to be paid because that was the order of the court; you know this.
What are you wanting us to say? "Don't speak to the court and hope they don't ask for the fine?" This could be a huge problem down the line even if they have made a clerical error.