9 Coach HSTs Acceleration

[NoOnesFool]

I've always wondered if the addition of the extra coach affects the performance of them significantly. Another poster put forward an idea of using redundant LNER HSTs on the MML. My immediate thought was that they would need shortening as the stop start nature of the route could not cope with 9 unpowered carriages.

What was the effect on performance like when ECML HSTs were lengthened to 9 coaches back in 1998? Was any slack added into the timetable to allow for this?

 

[Highlandspring]

What was the effect on performance like when ECML HSTs were lengthened to 9 coaches back in 1998? Was any slack added into the timetable to allow for this?

Just on a pedantic note it was 2003 or 2004 they were lengthened with the addition of the vehicle containing the disabled toilet (coach G).

 

[404250]

If they were used on the MML with 8 coaches, would their performance be better or worse than the EMT HSTs that have different engines I think?

 

[DanDaDriver]

If they were used on the MML with 8 coaches, would their performance be better or worse than the EMT HSTs that have different engines I think?

Worse, more weight although they have different engines but all rated to roughly the same HP (2200-2500 asthmatic horses). The MML is much more of a corkscrew than the ECML as well.

 

[43096]

Worse, more weight although they have different engines but all rated to roughly the same HP (2200-2500 asthmatic horses). The MML is much more of a corkscrew than the ECML as well.

You might want to read the question again, as it clearly states with 8 coaches.

The answer is “the same”, as both VP and MTU are set to deliver 2,250hp.

 

[DanDaDriver]

You might want to read the question again, as it clearly states with 8 coaches.

The answer is “the same”, as both VP and MTU are set to deliver 2,250hp.

There we go then

 

[hwl]

You might want to read the question again, as it clearly states with 8 coaches.

The answer is “the same”, as both VP and MTU are set to deliver 2,250hp.

Yep. The fundamental limitation with the HSTs is the traction motors but the MTU engine can increase power output faster than the VP185 so a (very) small difference between engines that makes little difference in practice.

 

[Plethora]

Wouldn't the carriages all need to be replaced or PRM modified in any event? Can HSTs run using Mark 4 carriages?

 

[hexagon789]

Wouldn't the carriages all need to be replaced or PRM modified in any event? Can HSTs run using Mark 4 carriages?

Only with significant modifications to the power cars and Mk4s.

 

[hexagon789]

I've always wondered if the addition of the extra coach affects the performance of them significantly. Another poster put forward an idea of using redundant LNER HSTs on the MML. My immediate thought was that they would need shortening as the stop start nature of the route could not cope with 9 unpowered carriages.

What was the effect on performance like when ECML HSTs were lengthened to 9 coaches back in 1998? Was any slack added into the timetable to allow for this?

It'll make a difference but not enough to make significant difference particularly on longer distance workings. If it did the Western Region would've altered their timetables when they extended the first of their sets to 2+8 from 2+7.

 

[hwl]

Wouldn't the carriages all need to be replaced or PRM modified in any event? Can HSTs run using Mark 4 carriages?

Only if you fit an inverter in the guards area in the power cars to convert the 415V 3phase supply used in HSTs /HST mk3s to the standard ETS supply and some other small wiring mods.

One thing worth mentioning is that the (non ex GC) EMT power cars are leased from Porterbrook (with VP 185 engines) but LNER's power car are mostly (29?) leased from Angel so this may also be about withdrawing non MTU power cars to make life easier. Abellio seem to get on very well with Angel...
EMT's Mk3 are mix of mostly Porterbook and some Angel but LNERs are mostly angel and some Porterbrook.
Mk4s are all Eversholt.

Hence this may all be about concentrating virtually all remaining HST running with Angel PCs and mk3s

 

[InTheEastMids]

Only with significant modifications to the power cars and Mk4s.

This was done to death an in MML related discussion quite recently.

As well as the electrical systems, the additional weight of a Mk4 vs a Mk3 would mean a 2+8 (Mk4) would take a significant performance hit vs a 2+8 Mk3 and by modern standards, a 2+8 HST struggles to pull the skin off a rice pudding.
There were also platform clearance issues on the MML for Mk4s that would need sorting out.

Of course it may be, that once Mk4s get replaced on the ECML, somebody will think that cross-breeding the surplus HST power cars with maybe 4-6 Mk4s is a great way to increase capacity in the short term on some routes (e.g. XC?) without the expensive rebuilding of Mk3s to sort out their corrosion and compliance issues.

 

[43096]

Only if you fit an inverter in the guards area in the power cars to convert the 415V 3phase supply used in HSTs /HST mk3s to the standard ETS supply and some other small wiring mods.

One thing worth mentioning is that the (non ex GC) EMT power cars are leased from Porterbrook (with VP 185 engines) but LNER's power car are mostly (29?) leased from Angel so this may also be about withdrawing non MTU power cars to make life easier. Abellio seem to get on very well with Angel...
EMT's Mk3 are mix of mostly Porterbook and some Angel but LNERs are mostly angel and some Porterbrook.
Mk4s are all Eversholt.

Hence this may all be about concentrating virtually all remaining HST running with Angel PCs and mk3s

LNER have 23 Angel power cars (10 sets).

If you go for MTUs the cost goes up as the VP185 is cheaper to maintain and has similar fuel consumption.

 

[hexagon789]

This was done to death an in MML related discussion quite recently.

As well as the electrical systems, the additional weight of a Mk4 vs a Mk3 would mean a 2+8 (Mk4) would take a significant performance hit vs a 2+8 Mk3 and by modern standards, a 2+8 HST struggles to pull the skin off a rice pudding.
There were also platform clearance issues on the MML for Mk4s that would need sorting out.

Of course it may be, that once Mk4s get replaced on the ECML, somebody will think that cross-breeding the surplus HST power cars with maybe 4-6 Mk4s is a great way to increase capacity in the short term on some routes (e.g. XC?) without the expensive rebuilding of Mk3s to sort out their corrosion and compliance issues.

I know it's been done to death, I well remember!

Just thought I'd reiterate that it's not easily done.