A bit of help please

[boing_uk]

As some of you may know, I am a traffic engineer and I am in the process of attempting to design a new style of traffic sign.

I would appreciate it if I could ask what you think the either of two attached signs mean (they mean the same thing - just two different styles). Also, which sign you think gets whatever the message is across better

I cannot tell you what they mean, because that would defeat the object; they are new signs so have to be intuitive.

Your assistance, as always, is appreciated.

Many thanks.

 

[Greenback]

My first thought is that it's a warning - 'beware of large dragonfly's doing poo poos on your car'.

However, as I am sure that large dragonfly's don't really exist, I have concluded it's something to do with entering a no satellite signal area?

 

[142094]

Going back to my driving lessons, a red triangle would mean a warning, and a red circle means 'prohibited' or not allowed. So I'm guessing the sign means no cars allowed in this area due to possible interference with satellites or something along those lines.

 

[Jordy]

I'm guessing its something to do with satnav, either that it won't work or it may send you the wrong way?

 

[CarterUSM]

I'm guessing its something to do with satnav, either that it won't work or it may send you the wrong way?

That's what i was thinking myself.

 

[185]

Assuming it's "don't follow satnav", I'd say too much to take in at speed in pictograms. It should just be Rectangular (Advisory) & 'GPS' with a red line through - then a "Beware Sat Nav Errors" white information panel underneath

 

[ailsa]

GPS liable to error? I would imagine that this sign would be for roads that sat-nav commonly sends drivers along when it shouldn't!

If so, I would imagine the style on the left to be more appropriate.

 

[Z12XE]

No watching Satellite TV on the move?

 

[thefab444]

Why is there an umbrella attached to the satellite?

 

[Oracle]

I suspect that it's 'DON'T USE SAT NAV OR GPS HERE' as otherwise you will end up down a narrow lane or in a field or bog. About time too.. The square sign would be a warning and the round one a prohibition. The latter might be constured as being a ban in order to avoid interference with aircraft say.

I remember that the engineers that designed the modern roadsigns were on tv a while back reminiscing about how they came up with the, for example, 'man opening umbrella' (aka Road Works) sign.

 

[boing_uk]

Thanks for your input thus far. I will look at incorporating "GPS" text in to the pictogram somewhere.

Assuming it's "don't follow satnav", I'd say too much to take in at speed in pictograms. It should just be Rectangular (Advisory) & 'GPS' with a red line through - then a "Beware Sat Nav Errors" white information panel underneath

Not strictly true, as the pictogram is scaleable through the "x" heights. The difficulty being that to a non english speaker, GPS could mean anything... if added to a satellite symbol and a car, it at least pushes the meaning across.

Also, as the symbol is only for temporary signage until the mapping companies catch up, it should be on a yellow sign. If it was to be permanent, such as have been used for routes unsuitable for HGV, then it should be blue background with white text and symbol

So, anyway, here are the full sign designs:

 

[boing_uk]

Why is there an umbrella attached to the satellite?

Unfortunately I had to use the existing approved design for a satellite, which is already a brolly.

 

[me123]

The question I have is why you would want such a sign anyway? Most Sat Navs actually are able to be updated fairly regularly, by downloading the appropriate software. And, of course, the various companies will update their maps at different times so advising people to unnecessarily switch off/ignore their sat navs could cause confusion. So how long do you keep the signs up for?

The existing signs announcing "road layout changed ahead" and the like are usually in situ for about ten years before someone gets the message, so simply taking these signs down after an appropriate length of time (and therefore making them relevent) would surely suffice?

 

[starrymarkb]

If stopping trucks surely what you need is a No Goods Vehicles (and a signed white on black truck route) sign, any trucks on that route are lible to prosecuction.

As for cars, there is always the option of marking roads as local traffic only or as unsuitable for vehicles.

Another problem is that a lot of trucks are using consumer satnav units, commercial ones are available which include height/weight restrictions and rule out unsuitable roads. but cost a lot more. In a lot of cases the driver is buying their own satnav unit.

Something to remember is that idiots existed prior to GPS and will still exist without them. Something illustrated by the number of cars that try and drive the wrong way up Sidwell Street despite passing several "No Motorvehicles (except local buses)" signs (Sat-nav units will send you around the inner bypass or via Paris street as they should)

 

[boing_uk]

No, we are not stopping trucks or anything like that; the entire system of traffic flow is being changed in the town centre. Significantly. And its not just one street, it is an entire large portion of the town centre.

Sat Navs wont be updated immediately, so the signs are going up as a temporary measure (which is why they are on yellow backgrounds) for 6 months.

To reiterate, this is not a minor scheme, it is a significant major change to traffic flows to accomodate new developments.

 

[Z12XE]

Sounds like a pointless excercise to me.

Those who follow their sat nav to the letter, regardless of local changes/problems etc (and therefore those who these signs would apply to) are more than likely too ignorant/stupid to understand or even notice the signs telling them to ignore beloved sat nav.

 

[starrymarkb]

Have you run this past SABRE? (the road enthusiast group)

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/

 

[boing_uk]

Have you run this past SABRE? (the road enthusiast group)

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/

Check their members list

The HGV sat nav signs have been discussed at length there, so it would be a pointless exercise as many of my comrades on their are a) traffic engineers ir b) know far too much about traffic signing to be considered healthy.

Pointless exercise or not, it has been requested that I do it, so I am doing it the best way I know how - the right way. But just wanted to make sure with non-road geek minded folks that at the very least the pictogram meant something close what it was supposed to mean without the supporting text, which is what alot of our pictogram signs are designed to do.

 

[me123]

No, we are not stopping trucks or anything like that; the entire system of traffic flow is being changed in the town centre. Significantly. And its not just one street, it is an entire large portion of the town centre.

Sat Navs wont be updated immediately, so the signs are going up as a temporary measure (which is why they are on yellow backgrounds) for 6 months.

To reiterate, this is not a minor scheme, it is a significant major change to traffic flows to accomodate new developments.

One way systems have been accommodated before without such a measure. Simple signs such as "changes to traffic layout" should suffice. No entry signs, no right/left hand turn signs etc have also proved rather effective over the years at stopping people going the wrong way down a one-way street. If it is properly done in the first place, there is no need for these signs.

What is going to happen is that the no sat nav signs will be up for years on end; I know this is the case, because many councils are too cheap/stupid to remove these temporary signs! There's one down the road from me that's been up for nigh on 15 years that still advises that the 15 year old traffic lights are "new".

Besides, sat navs get updated at different rates, so telling some people to stop using their updated satnav might cause more problems than benefits.

 

[Dai.]

I'm not sure about the picture, other than that it's good!


When I say not sure it looks as if it's to do with surveillance. "You won't be watched by us in this area.."... God knows why I thought of that.

 

[boing_uk]

What is going to happen is that the no sat nav signs will be up for years on end; I know this is the case, because many councils are too cheap/stupid to remove these temporary signs! There's one down the road from me that's been up for nigh on 15 years that still advises that the 15 year old traffic lights are "new".

One of my bugbears is that. And no, they will be up for 6 months max, although three months is most likely, depending on when we update our published records. And as I am doing the scheme, it WILL only be 6 months max.

Besides, sat navs get updated at different rates, so telling some people to stop using their updated satnav might cause more problems than benefits.

See above.

 

[me123]

Well, as long as it is only up for a few months. I still think it's pointless, but having read your earlier post, if you are being requested to do it, the signs look OK to me.

 

[flymo]

Assuming it's "don't follow satnav", I'd say too much to take in at speed in pictograms. It should just be Rectangular (Advisory) & 'GPS' with a red line through - then a "Beware Sat Nav Errors" white information panel underneath

I agree with this. Keep it simple.

The difficulty being that to a non english speaker, GPS could mean anything... if added to a satellite symbol and a car, it at least pushes the meaning across.

Trouble is, would truck or bus/coach drivers and especially white van man then ignore the warning as their vehicle is not in the pictogram. If it were just simply GPS or SATNAV with a red line through it then it would be a lot easier to understand. I would have thought the terms Satnav & GPS are almost universal these days, could be wrong - wouldn't be the first time.

Anyway, although over 3 years ago are these signs still there?

Edit: Found some on Google Maps. No idea how recent these views are though...

 

[boing_uk]

The "car" symbol is used as a "motor vehicle" representation universally in the UK and I beleive (though happy to be corrected) the same is true in Europe. It encompasses motorcycles with side cars, cars, vans, buses and HGV's. It is only on specific restrictions or guidance for specific vehicles do you use another symbol.

The Welsh signs are specific to HGV's in that HGV's should not follow their satnavs down those roads as they are unsuitable and clearly the existing text version of the sign was not working.

 

[atomicdanny]

comment removed... (I don't want to cause an argument)

 

[me123]

he only sign there was a national speed limit sign (not something that you would expect on a dead end!), it was also pitch black and was driving at 40. Then of course there was a gate in the middle of a road which I didn't expect but luckly missed it but still damaged my car

Just because there's a national speed limit sign, that doesn't mean it's safe or sensible to drive at those kind of speeds. I can think of plenty of NSL roads where you can't even get close to 30, never mind 40 or 60.

If you were going too fast to be able to stop at the dead end (or any other obstruction on the road), chances are you were going too fast. And that's your fault.

 

[atomicdanny]

I never said it wasn't my fault, also if it was a country lane then I would have been going a lot slower (I'm not that stupid to go 60 down those types of roads or even over 30!), this road was a normal road because as I found out it was the former A14 main road.. completely straight etc and what you would expect from a normal main road!

Also when you are expecting it to be a main road according to a sat nav, you wouldn't normally expect to find a dead end! (in the pitch black and then a metal gate litterally appears out of no-where... about 30 - 40 meters)

(I am normally a very careful driver that sticks to speed limits (on normal roads - and am very cautious on "country lanes") but now thanks to what I mentioned above, I'm sure now people will think that I'm just another reckless "chav" driver)

 

[Aussie_Rail]

Well, our traffic signs here in Australia are somewhat very different to those in the UK and Europe, and even still, they vary slightly in different states.

If VicRoads were to put up signs advising that motorists are entering no-reception areas, assuming thats what the sign means, then the sign would be blue with white text, as its advisory and not a danger or a hazard as the road condition doesn't change.

So what ever style you have for advisory notifications would be the way to go. Also I don't think the red line through it is also relevant, as thats the same style of sign you would associate with 'no smoking' etc, as this sign is not giving a restriction to an activity.

Hope that helps.

 

[TGV]

How about a sign that says:

"Buy a map"