A "mask-free" hour for shops?

[bramling]

They're still wearing a mask so what's the difference?

A big difference, in that they have the means to use the masks in a sterile environment, so they’re not running the risk of doing more harm than good.

 

[43066]

They're still wearing a mask so what's the difference?

Because there’s evidence that a surgeon wearing a properly fitted surgical mask in an operating theatre, exposed to a high risk patient for hours at a time, has an actual medical benefit.

Surprise surprise there’s no evidence at all that telling Mrs. Miggins to wear a bandana (that she keeps fiddling with) while she rummages through the apples in Tesco next to Mr. Smith (wearing a dust mask with his nostrils exposed) makes any difference at all.

The whole thing is farcical and would be funny if it wasn’t so sinister and dystopian.

 

[43066]

The government's incentives here are to get the economy working again, which, inherently, requires people to be out in the shops again, spending money. You might think people's fears are irrational, but do you think people are going to shop if they are scared of doing so? No. Making the public feel safe is just as important as making the experience actually safe.

I'm not sure I really agree with the government policy here, but I can see where it's coming from.

Well then they should be honest about their reasoning. Instead they’ve lied to us all (yet again) by implying that the reason for masks being mandated is because the science has changed when it hasn’t! I’m simply not prepared to adopt a measure I find highly distressing and uncomfortable just to make other people feel better.

I also think they might have spectacularly misjudged this. Anecdotally literally everyone I know is making a point of avoiding shops, public transport etc. specifically because they don’t wish to wear masks.

 

[py_megapixel]

Well then they should be honest about their reasoning. Instead they’ve lied to us all (yet again) by implying that the reason for masks being mandated is because the science has changed when it hasn’t!

Possibly this is a regional thing then?

Your profile states "London." I live outside of London (not going to provide my exact home town but I'm in the UK) and everybody I know seems pretty indifferent to it.

Incidentally it's irrating to no end when people appear surprised that the current government have mislead and lied to us, which is something most people here including yourself seem to have, thankfully, picked up on.

I’m simply not prepared to adopt a measure I find highly distressing and uncomfortable just to make other people feel better.

I believe if wearing a mask is a cause of distress then it's an exemption.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I also think they might have spectacularly misjudged this. Anecdotally literally everyone I know is making a point of avoiding shops, public transport etc. specifically because they don’t wish to wear masks.

Precisely this. If it wasn't for the mask debacle I would probably be out most days supporting the local transport networks. The likelihood of being within 2 meters of somebody for 15 minutes is pretty small considering most buses and trains are carrying masses of fresh air, at the moment anyway. Although if a bus/train was busy, I'd be prepared to wear a face covering.

In a shop - no, because the chances of me being within 2m of someone for >15 minutes is next to none, pandemic or not!

 

[43066]

Possibly this is a regional thing then?

Your profile states "London." I live outside of London (not going to provide my exact home town but I'm in the UK) and everybody I know seems pretty indifferent to it.

Incidentally it's irrating to no end when people appear surprised that the current government have mislead and lied to us, which is something most people here including yourself seem to have, thankfully, picked up on.


I believe if wearing a mask is a cause of distress then it's an exemption.

I suspect we are probably in broad agreement on this. Most people I know also grudgingly accept it, but are actively avoiding situations where they will need to wear a mask. So (at least in my experience) it’s having the exact opposite effect of what has been intended in terms of getting people out and about again.

I’m a little hesitant to claim an exemption (I’m legally exempt due to my job for much of the tine and arguably have a reasonable excuse, for another reason, when I’m not at work), because I don’t want to undermine those who are less able to defend themselves against bullies and vigilantes. And I’m afraid that’s exactly what this policy appears to be encouraging.

 

[bramling]

Precisely this. If it wasn't for the mask debacle I would probably be out most days supporting the local transport networks. The likelihood of being within 2 meters of somebody for 15 minutes is pretty small considering most buses and trains are carrying masses of fresh air, at the moment anyway. Although if a bus/train was busy, I'd be prepared to wear a face covering.

In a shop - no, because the chances of me being within 2m of someone for >15 minutes is next to none, pandemic or not!

Same how I‘m seeing it. Normally this week I’d have popped out of work at least once a day to buy some food, hasn’t happened at all. Likewise I’m now only visiting my town if there’s something I *really* need. There won’t be any speculative browsing at all.

I am completely not prepared to put up with this measure just to make others feel better, when there’s documented risks attached to it.

 

[bramling]

The fact that Anne Widdecombe has come out (surprise, surprise) as anti-mask is the strongest proof yet that masks are a fundamentally good idea.

But you *are* prepared to go with Boris Johnson who, unlike Ann Widdecombe, has a track record of woe when attempting to deal with Covid?!

 

[MontyMinerWA]

Because there’s evidence that a surgeon wearing a properly fitted surgical mask in an operating theatre, exposed to a high risk patient for hours at a time, has an actual medical benefit.

Surprise surprise there’s no evidence at all that telling Mrs. Miggins to wear a bandana (that she keeps fiddling with) while she rummages through the apples in Tesco next to Mr. Smith (wearing a dust mask with his nostrils exposed) makes any difference at all.

The whole thing is farcical and would be funny if it wasn’t so sinister and dystopian.

It's not all sinister or dystopian. Sadly some people in this country don't like being told what to do and that is the long and short of it.

Oddly enough I've not seen anyone in a supermarket wearing either a dust mask or a bandana. Just people doing the right thing, even if they accept that the positive effects maybe not be enough to stop the virus.

 

[MontyMinerWA]

A big difference, in that they have the means to use the masks in a sterile environment, so they’re not running the risk of doing more harm than good.

We were wearing our masks in the supermarket this evening. Are you suggesting that we were doing more harm than good?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But you *are* prepared to go with Boris Johnson who, unlike Ann Widdecombe, has a track record of woe when attempting to deal with Covid?!

It's more likely to have come from Matt Hancock to be honest.

 

[causton]

Why not an even split?
You could do something like on Mon/Wed/Fri/Sat masks in the morning and no masks in the afternoon, and the other way round on other days of the week.
...

Anything else is a confusing overcomplication.

Christ, that's going to get confusing in itself!

They’re uncomfortable, making shopping much less pleasant, and haven’t actually been proven to work.

You need to find a more comfortable one then! There are by now many different styles and patterns and manufacturers, I'd be surprised if you didn't find at least one that was comfortable.

The whole thing is farcical and would be funny if it wasn’t so sinister and dystopian.

Then why are lots of countries doing it? What is the conspiracy theory here?

I have spent a weekend in Germany and the Netherlands and you know what, everyone wears one properly and gets on with their day.

Why are the UK "too important" to wear a mask? What makes our island special that we're immune from the disease and don't have to take the measures the rest of the world are? Here's a hint, we're not, because we're doing worse than they are. Maybe we should listen to them instead of just thinking we know it all...

 

[43066]

It's not all sinister or dystopian.

Perhaps you live in North Korea or China where this kind of thing is the norm. It isn’t (or hasn’t been!) the norm in the U.K. and most people I know find it deeply unpleasant

Sadly some people in this country don't like being told what to do and that is the long and short of it.

You’re right. Some of us think for ourselves, and we reject an instruction to do something unpleasant and inconvenient, which has little to no scientific justification. Especially when we are being lied to about why we are being asked to do it.

Oddly enough I've not seen anyone in a supermarket wearing either a dust mask or a bandana. Just people doing the right thing

I nipped to Tesco express a little while ago, there were four customers in there. None of them was wearing a mask. How do you know they weren’t doing the right thing? They might all have been exempt.

even if they accept that the positive effects maybe not be enough to stop the virus.

In which case, there’s no point in doing it, and it isn’t the “right thing”. That sounds like doublethink to me! I shouldn’t be surprised the “ministry of truth” has been hard at work over the last few months.

 

[Enthusiast]

I believe if wearing a mask is a cause of distress then it's an exemption.

You actually need to claim "severe distress" to take advantage of one of the listed "reasonable excuses".

We were wearing our masks in the supermarket this evening. Are you suggesting that we were doing more harm than good?

Almost certainly - more potential harm to yourself than the possible benefit to anybody else, anyway. Unless you wear a properly fitting one and you do not fiddle with it or remove and replace it unless you thoroughly wash or sterilise your hands, you run the risk of transferring any viruses you may have picked up whilst rummaging through the baked beans to your mask or face. You should also change your mask after 30 minutes for a fresh one (which you must have kept sterile) and wash or sterilise your hands before making the change). As I said last week, because of informed expert advice which I received from a relative I have ditched face coverings. I'm afraid that the very minimal (and dubious) benefit I may provide to others by wearing one is not sufficient to outweigh the very clear risk to me by doing so.

I received this advice from a senior medical professional (my cousin) and because I have not been trained in the use of PPE and cannot discipline myself to take the measures I mention (in common with just about everybody else - including my relative when she's outside her hospital) face coverings are out for me.

 

[MontyMinerWA]

You actually need to claim "severe distress" to take advantage of one of the listed "reasonable excuses".

Almost certainly - more potential harm to yourself than the possible benefit to anybody else, anyway. Unless you wear a properly fitting one and you do not fiddle with it or remove and replace it unless you thoroughly wash or sterilise your hands, you run the risk of transferring any viruses you may have picked up whilst rummaging through the baked beans to your mask or face. You should also change your mask after 30 minutes for a fresh one (which you must have kept sterile) and wash or sterilise your hands before making the change). As I said last week, because of informed expert advice which I received from a relative I have ditched face coverings. I'm afraid that the very minimal (and dubious) benefit I may provide to others by wearing one is not sufficient to outweigh the very clear risk to me by doing so.

I received this advice from a senior medical professional relative (my cousin) and because I have not been trained in the use of PPE and cannot discipline myself to take the measures I mention (in common with just about everybody else - including my relative when she's outside her hospital) face coverings are out for me.

Everything you've typed out is common sense. Fortunately we and many others have plenty of it.

 

[43066]

Then why are lots of countries doing it? What is the conspiracy theory here?

Your argument in favour of wearing masks seems to be: “because everyone else is doing it”.

No concern about the fact there’s no scientific evidence that they work outside clinical settings? What about the fact the WHO has admitted its change in stance has been down to political lobbying rather than science?

Not everyone is willing to simply accept whatever they are told without question. That doesn’t make them “conspiracy theorists”.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Everything you've typed out is common sense. Fortunately we and many others have plenty of it.

I wouldn't be so sure.

I was in town yesterday, and whilst I was not in any shops, outside I saw plenty of people sporting the blue disposable type of mask around their chin, some people pulling one out of their back pocket (crumpled up) to nip into Tesco and some wearing a face covering but not over their nose.

Although the majority (perhaps 65%) were not wearing face coverings, the majority of whom who were, were wearing them completely incorrectly.

 

[43066]

I have ditched face coverings. I'm afraid that the very minimal (and dubious) benefit I may provide to others by wearing one is not sufficient to outweigh the very clear risk to me by doing so.

That’s the view I’m increasingly coming around to.

 

[MontyMinerWA]

Perhaps you live in North Korea or China where this kind of thing is the norm. It isn’t (or hasn’t been!) the norm in the U.K. and most people I know find it deeply unpleasant




You’re right. Some of us think for ourselves, and we reject an instruction to do something unpleasant and inconvenient, which has little to no scientific justification. Especially when we are being lied to about why we are being asked to do it.



I nipped to Tesco express a little while ago, there were four customers in there. None of them was wearing a mask. How do you know they weren’t doing the right thing? They might all have been exempt.




In which case, there’s no point in doing it, and it isn’t the “right thing”. That sounds lik

Perhaps you live in North Korea or China where this kind of thing is the norm. It isn’t (or hasn’t been!) the norm in the U.K. and most people I know find it deeply unpleasant




You’re right. Some of us think for ourselves, and we reject an instruction to do something unpleasant and inconvenient, which has little to no scientific justification. Especially when we are being lied to about why we are being asked to do it.



I nipped to Tesco express a little while ago, there were four customers in there. None of them was wearing a mask. How do you know they weren’t doing the right thing? They might all have been exempt.




In which case, there’s no point in doing it, and it isn’t the “right thing”. That sounds like doublethink to me! I shouldn’t be surprised the “ministry of truth” has been hard at work over the last few months.

e doublethink to me! I shouldn’t be surprised the “ministry of truth” has been hard at work over the last few months.

Anyone would think that you have a keen interest in conspiracy theories.

 

[bramling]

It's more likely to have come from Matt Hancock to be honest.

Another one who managed to get Covid himself, though unlike Boris de Pfeffel Johnson he did at least manage to avoid the intensive care bit, but not association with the rest of the dubious track record not least 50k deaths.

Perhaps Widdecombe’s judgement isn’t so bad compared with the track record outlined above?!

 

[43066]

Anyone would think that you have a keen interest in conspiracy theories.

Aha, so anyone who doesn’t slavishly accept the confused, misleading nonsense this government keeps putting out is a “conspiracy theorist“.

I’m sure you are right. After all, good old uncle Boris and cousin Dominic have all of our bests interests at heart, and always tell nothing but the truth.

 

[bramling]

That’s the view I’m increasingly coming around to.

Absolutety. In a work-related setting they’re a complete liability, and I’ve made it clear to my employer that if mandated to wear one then I will refuse on the grounds of health and safety.

 

[bramling]

We were wearing our masks in the supermarket this evening. Are you suggesting that we were doing more harm than good?

The quote isn’t my words, but actually comes from the deputy Chief Medical Officer. Plenty on You Tube if you wish to view the real thing.

 

[MontyMinerWA]

Aha, so anyone who doesn’t slavishly accept the confused, misleading nonsense this government keeps putting out is a “conspiracy theorist“.

I’m sure you are right. After all, good old uncle Boris and cousin Dominic have all of our bests interests at heart, and always tell nothing but the truth.

I don't need the Prime Minister or Dominic Cummings to tell me that wearing a mask is the the right thing to do. It's obviously the right thing to do.

What a coincidence that you are related to both the Prime Minister and his senior adviser.

 

[Yew]

I personally hate the requirement but this suggestion is nonsense

Are you also going to suggest that for other laws you don't like? Should we have speeding hour? Park where you like hour? Smoking in the pub day?

I suppose the difference is that these laws are proven to have some effect, on the other hand, every randomised control trial ever undertaken on masks show that they havent!

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I don't need the Prime Minister or Dominic Cummings to tell me that wearing a mask is the the right thing to do. It's obviously the right thing to do.

Could you direct us to this evidence that shows that wearing a face covering is "obviously the right thing to do"?

 

[Journeyman]

It's not all sinister or dystopian. Sadly some people in this country don't like being told what to do and that is the long and short of it.

Oddly enough I've not seen anyone in a supermarket wearing either a dust mask or a bandana. Just people doing the right thing, even if they accept that the positive effects maybe not be enough to stop the virus.

It *is* sinister and dystopian, and it's been introduced with an astonishing lack of evidence and lack of measures of success/failure.

I use a bandana. It's acceptable under the law.

We were wearing our masks in the supermarket this evening. Are you suggesting that we were doing more harm than good?

Yes.

 

[bramling]

By covering our mouth and nose we were helping to reduce transmission of the virus.

You would not be helping if you contract it yourself as a result of wearing a germ-laden mask, either helping yourself or anyone you then pass it on to.

You *absolutely* sure you didn’t misuse your mask at all, at any point? If so then congratulations, you’ve managed to do what virtually no one else seems to be doing!

 

[Richard Scott]

By covering our mouth and nose we were helping to reduce transmission of the virus.

Really, so you have the virus then? That's what your statement implies. You shouldn't be wearing a mask, you should be at home self isolating.

 

[Huntergreed]

You need to find a more comfortable one then! There are by now many different styles and patterns and manufacturers, I'd be surprised if you didn't find at least one that was comfortable.

I've tried to believe me! The reusable masks are far comfier than the surgical disposable ones that many wear, however even these aren't perfect and after 30 minutes they really start to get uncomfortable.

Then why are lots of countries doing it? What is the conspiracy theory here?

I have spent a weekend in Germany and the Netherlands and you know what, everyone wears one properly and gets on with their day.

Why are the UK "too important" to wear a mask? What makes our island special that we're immune from the disease and don't have to take the measures the rest of the world are? Here's a hint, we're not, because we're doing worse than they are. Maybe we should listen to them instead of just thinking we know it all...

No, this is not true at all. If someone came over to the UK (which is happening) and saw people in supermarkets and onboard trains they would think that we're all perfectly complying, I wonder if there's a German Rail Forum, but if there is (or another kind of German forum) then I would be very surprised if they weren't having a very similar debate to the one which we are right now. We're not 'too important' to wear a mask, we simply want evidence that they actually work. I've not seen a shred of this yet. If someone presented concrete proof that masks are effective in stopping transmission in non-clinical settings, then I would have absolutely no issue wearing them, and in fact, I would encourage others to wear them as much as possible too so we could drive transmission further down and reopen more quickly.

You actually need to claim "severe distress" to take advantage of one of the listed "reasonable excuses".

Almost certainly - more potential harm to yourself than the possible benefit to anybody else, anyway. Unless you wear a properly fitting one and you do not fiddle with it or remove and replace it unless you thoroughly wash or sterilise your hands, you run the risk of transferring any viruses you may have picked up whilst rummaging through the baked beans to your mask or face. You should also change your mask after 30 minutes for a fresh one (which you must have kept sterile) and wash or sterilise your hands before making the change). As I said last week, because of informed expert advice which I received from a relative I have ditched face coverings. I'm afraid that the very minimal (and dubious) benefit I may provide to others by wearing one is not sufficient to outweigh the very clear risk to me by doing so.

I received this advice from a senior medical professional (my cousin) and because I have not been trained in the use of PPE and cannot discipline myself to take the measures I mention (in common with just about everybody else - including my relative when she's outside her hospital) face coverings are out for me.

Excellent post, this perfectly sums up my views. I don't believe masks work in non-clinical settings (and nobody actually uses them properly anyway!) Here in Scotland cases have increased quite noticeably since we introduced the mask laws, and I wouldn't put it past the masks being the cause or at least a contributory cause towards this.

I don't need the Prime Minister or Dominic Cummings to tell me that wearing a mask is the the right thing to do. It's obviously the right thing to do.

What a coincidence that you are related to both the Prime Minister and his senior adviser.

Can you please describe how it is obviously the right thing to do? I've not seen a shred of evidence in any of the mask threads so far, and there have been plenty of posts in these! If you can present this, then I will accept this and agree that masks are a worthwhile endeavour for the meantime to drive transmission down, but until this is presented (which it hasn't been despite me calling for it for weeks, leading me to believe there isn't any), I will not accept that masks are effective in lowering transmission in non-clinical settings, and I will continue to believe this law is unjustified, desperate political point-scoring.