A Merchant Navy at 140mph + other speed record myths.

[xotGD]

So what's the highest speed a Deltic managed? Somewhere around 120 mph?

 

[hexagon789]

So what's the highest speed a Deltic managed? Somewhere around 120 mph?

125mph officially recorded down Stoke, 130-odd unofficially... (I.e. no evidence to substantiate it beyond hearsay and anecdotal evidence).

They also had the fastest loco-hauled start-to-stop booking in the UK for a year, faster even than the 87s on the flatter bits of the WCML, 91.4mph non-stop King's Cross to Retford with the Hull Executive for the May 1979 timetable.

 

[King Lazy]

There are quite a few rumours of Mallard’s record being possibly beaten by US locos mainly on the Milwaukee Road.

The Milwaukee Road Class A 4-4-2s were built specifically for regular 100 mph service and there are plenty of claims of 120mph running though 112 is their highest officially recorded speed.

The later F7 4-6-4s were claimed to be 125mph capable.

Certainly 100 mph running was probably a daily occurrence and the railroad even provided 90mph restriction signs on certain curves.

Whether any of these locos ever topped 126 is not known but their baseline daily speed was higher to begin with than the other record breakers.

The Milwaukee’s Mechanical engineer C.M Bilty stated that on a test run an F7 ran 19 miles at over 100mph and 5 of those miles were at 120. The problem was the speedo needle hit the stop at 120. He believed that during those 5 miles 123-125 may have been reached.

There is also a claim by the French railway author Baron Gerard Vuillet that he timed an F7 at 125 and that it sustained 120 for over 4 miles.

A Pennsylvania E2 loco was claimed to have hit 127 on the inaugral run of their “Pennsylvania special” but this was based on 2 separate observations 3 miles apart so no accurate records are available.

I suspect no-one will ever know if Mallard was ever beaten as despite many rumours there are no accurate records that could be regarded as evidence.

Personally, given the US designs ran faster in normal service and the anecdotal evidence puts them with 10ths of an MPH of Mallards 126 I believe one of them probably did beat Mallard. Given that it is accepted that the 126 run damaged Mallard but the US locos sustained 120 apparently with ease I suspect that an actual record attempt, properly documented would have seen one of the Milwaukee designs claim the title.

However in fairness to Mallard. The crew on the 126 run did claim that they thought 130 may have been possible.

Either way it is almost certain that Mallard will always be he official record holder.

 

[coradiafan2000]

Either way it is almost certain that Mallard will always be he official record holder.

Not for much longer with the way the T1 project is going in the states. A big part of the reason they're building it is to break Mallard's record.

 

[hexagon789]

Certainly 100 mph running was probably a daily occurrence and the railroad even provided 90mph restriction signs on certain curves.

I was informed that the interlocking at Rondout had a sign which read:
"SLOW TO 100"

Equally other sources say it read "90"

 

[Spartacus]

So what's the highest speed a Deltic managed? Somewhere around 120 mph?

I've heard of THE Deltic knocking of the door of 140mph running light on the WCML, possibly down Shap. Dunno whether to take it with a pinch of salt or not, not because it's unlikely to have been able to manage it, given the performance of the production ones it possibly could, but running light you'd have to have absolute confidence you weren't gonna get checked for something and turn into a high speed unstoppable ice skate when you tried to stop.

 

[Harvester]

I've seen a couple of 105s, but nothing higher. 99-101mph seemed typical when drivers were "going for it", more than 101 was seemingly quite rare, perhaps simply the conditions for sustained high-speed running that would touch figures exceeding the ton were just not present - not enough straight track and favourable gradients?

Just to add I have looked at many published logs of MN runs, and found only five runs were a speed above 101mph was recorded.

35003 26/6/67 106mph ‘Up‘ Driver Fred Burridge
35005 15/5/65 105mph ‘Down’ Driver Gordon Hooper
35003 28/6/67 105mph ‘Up’ Driver Fred Burridge
35028 12/12/66 103mph ‘Up’ Driver Gordon Porter
35008 5/7/67 102mph ‘Up’ Driver Ainsley De’Ath

 

[hexagon789]

Just to add I have looked at many published logs of MN runs, and found only five runs were a speed above 101mph was recorded.

35003 26/6/67 106mph ‘Up‘ Driver Fred Burridge
35005 15/5/65 105mph ‘Down’ Driver Gordon Hooper
35003 28/6/67 105mph ‘Up’ Driver Fred Burridge
35028 12/12/66 103mph ‘Up’ Driver Gordon Porter
35008 5/7/67 102mph ‘Up’ Driver Ainsley De’Ath

Remarkable.

Also, Driver Burridge - the Bill Hoole of the Southern?

 

[Western Sunset]

Fortunately, Driver De'Ath didn't appear to tempt fate too much and only achieved 102mph.

 

[hexagon789]

Fortunately, Driver De'Ath didn't appear to tempt fate too much and only achieved 102mph.

Lol, I never twigged that one!

 

[zwk500]

Is the 102mph run the last recorded 100mph+ Steam run in normal service on BR?

 

[Western Sunset]

I reckon it must have been.

 

[Sm5]

What would a Duchess be capable of, on Stoke Bank ?

always feel theres more hidden power in a Duchess than an A4.

 

[geoffk]

"Heritage Railway" magazine 285 (October 2021) contains an article about BR Standard 5 73082 "Camelot" and its owning group. The article includes the description of an alleged high-speed run with this loco on a five-van parcels train late on Christmas Eve 1964, with the driver in a hurry to attend a party. The 36 miles from Salisbury to Basingstoke are alleged to have been covered in 28 minutes, an average of 77.1 mph, with a top speed of 107 at Andover (Junction as it was)!

I'd never come across this before and, to say the least, was a bit sceptical and checked that it wasn't in fact the April edition.

 

[Harvester]

Is the 102mph run the last recorded 100mph+ Steam run in normal service on BR?

Apparently it was. The train was the 18:38 Salisbury-Waterloo (Wednesday 5/7/67) and 102mph was reached down Grateley Bank before the Andover stop.

Source: Bulleid’s Pacifics - D.W. Winkworth
The Twilight of Southern Steam - Don Benn


MN 35007 almost reached 100mph the following evening (Thursday 6/7/67) on the 17:30 Weymouth-Waterloo, but blew a cylinder gland at Fleet when doing 98mph.

 

[Strathclyder]

125mph officially recorded down Stoke.

This was 55008 The Green Howards on 2nd February 1978, wasn't it?

Not for much longer with the way the T1 project is going in the states. A big part of the reason they're building it is to break Mallard's record.

There are several stories of the original T1s reaching or even exceeding 140mph, but none of them have ever been verified as far as I know. That said, I can certainly believe that they managed to surpass their rated speed multiple times given their immense power and free-steaming characteristics, not to mention the damage the running gear/poppet valves sustained when this occurred (in particular, the metallurgy of the poppet valves used meant weren't designed for sustained high speed running; over 100mph in the case of the production T1s). But I digress, the PRR 5500 project is one I've been keeping an eye on with great interest.

A Pennsylvania E2 loco was claimed to have hit 127 on the inaugral run of their “Pennsylvania special” but this was based on 2 separate observations 3 miles apart so no accurate records are available.

Sticking with the 'Pennsy', the E6 Atlantic hauling the special Lindbergh newsreel train from Washington DC to New York* in June 1927 (#460) reached a max speed of 115mph according to the footplate crew, but this has never been corroborated by official sources. This run did manage an average of 74mph however, a record for steam traction on the DC to NY run that has never been bettered.

*: or to be more precise, the Manhattan Transfer station in Harrison, New Jersey, where a electric loco took over for the trip under the Hudson River into Penn Station.

 

[Harvester]

What would a Duchess be capable of, on Stoke Bank ?

always feel theres more hidden power in a Duchess than an A4.

46245 City of London was used on a Kings Cross to Doncaster and return special on Sunday 9 June 1963. There was a fast run down Stoke Bank on the return, with many exaggerated claims made about the maximum speed
reached. I have yet to see a published log of this run.

 

[Master Cutler]

What would a Duchess be capable of, on Stoke Bank ?

always feel theres more hidden power in a Duchess than an A4.

I recall a member of the PMRLT saying that if they could feed enough coal into the fire, a Duchess would be capable of at least 120mph. The opinion was that mechanical stoking would be the only way to achieve these sort of speeds consistently.

 

[MP33]

In Wisden there are records from the Victorian era for throwing the Cricket Ball the furthest. There is a footnote advising that research has confirmed that the records are true, however the distances may not be fully accurate.

It appears that there appears to be small differences in the claimed speed and the actual speed, due to it not being able to measure as accurately as today.

 

[hexagon789]

This was 55008 The Green Howards on 2nd February 1978, wasn't it?

Correct, the Railway Performance Society holds a full log of the run.

 

[Harvester]

"Heritage Railway" magazine 285 (October 2021) contains an article about BR Standard 5 73082 "Camelot" and its owning group. The article includes the description of an alleged high-speed run with this loco on a five-van parcels train late on Christmas Eve 1964, with the driver in a hurry to attend a party. The 36 miles from Salisbury to Basingstoke are alleged to have been covered in 28 minutes, an average of 77.1 mph, with a top speed of 107 at Andover (Junction as it was)!

I'd never come across this before and, to say the least, was a bit sceptical and checked that it wasn't in fact the April edition.

Wonder who logged the run, if it was a parcels train. I have never heard of this, and surely the vans would carry (75/80mph) speed restrictions. It’s doubtful even an enthusiastic driver would attempt to do 100mph plus with such a rake.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I was reading "The Modified Bulleid Pacifics" by Tim Hillier-Graves and came across a claim by a Southern Region fireman by the name of Jim Marsh that there was an article in Locomotive Express where an Exmouth Junction driver claimed he had covered 3.5 miles in 1.5 minutes, at an average speed of 140mph, in an unrebuilt Merchant Navy. I thought it was a typo at first, but Marsh then goes on to say that nobody contradicted the story and that another driver he knew said he knew the writer and that he wasn't prone to exaggeration. I can't help but raise an eyebrow at this.

Is there any truth to this claim at all? I know that the Merchant Navies were incredibly quick in their original forms, but would 140mph even be possible? Much less on a stretch of line that isn't Stoke Bank? There's no mention of what stretch of line this speed allegedly occurred on. I know there were several instances of 100mph by the rebuilt pacifics so I'm willing to believe even higher speeds were reached by the original engines but 140mph seems very far fetched to me.

Similarly, are there any other rumours of Mallard's 126mph being broken, or any other exceptionally high speeds achieved by steam? I've heard rumours that a GWR Saint reached 120mph light engine while on test, which I find a bit more believable. And are there any similar stories with diesel and electric traction?

Not such a high speed but a work colleague from Lostock Hall area claimed in all seriousness that he had a cab ride in a WD 2-8-0 that did 90mph going South down Shap. Perhaps someone believed him but living near Lostock Hall I doubt many did. But is this how such deeds become folklore ?

 

[D6130]

Wonder who logged the run, if it was a parcels train. I have never heard of this, and surely the vans would carry (75/80mph) speed restrictions. It’s doubtful even an enthusiastic driver would attempt to do 100mph plus with such a rake.

Many of the Southern Region newspaper sets included a Mark 1 BSK for 'night owls' returning to the South Coast from a long evening's entertainment in the capital, so I suppose it's quite possible that one such set could have been used on a Christmas parcels extra and somebody with a stopwatch could have cadged an unofficial ride. Four wheeled vans (CCT & PMV) were limited to 75 mph, but bogie vans (BG & GUV) were limited to 90 although, in my experience, they were extremely rough-riding and prone to long spells of lateral hunting at anything over about 60 on continuously-welded rail. In the last year of Southern steam, Nine Elms driver Gordon Porter often used to swap for the 02 45 Waterloo-Bournemouth passenger and news and gained a bit of a cult following among the regular bashers, whom he liked to entertain with some very fast runs with rebuilt light pacifics. However, according to fellow Nine Elms driver Jim Evans, writing in his - highly recommended - book 'Man of the Southern', the Standard class 5s - although good, solid locos - could rarely exceed 80 mph....even downhill.

 

[randyrippley]

So if the rebuilt 71000 were to be allowed to run at full speed, how fast could it go?

 

[6Gman]

Not such a high speed but a work colleague from Lostock Hall area claimed in all seriousness that he had a cab ride in a WD 2-8-0 that did 90mph going South down Shap. Perhaps someone believed him but living near Lostock Hall I doubt many did. But is this how such deeds become folklore ?

The mind boggles!

The crew would presumably have needed extensive dental work and attention to their pulverised skeleto-muscular system ! ?

 

[Spartacus]

The mind boggles!

The crew would presumably have needed extensive dental work and attention to their pulverised skeleto-muscular system ! ?

Must have been a 9F surely, I've heard of them becoming mixed up before, probably due to their broadly similar nature as well as their numbering.

So if the rebuilt 71000 were to be allowed to run at full speed, how fast could it go?

With 6ft 2in driving wheels I wouldn't have thought too much over 100mph, similar to the Merchant Navys, though it would probably be excellent at maintaining that, provided the fireman/men could keep up.

 

[Strathclyder]

Correct, the Railway Performance Society holds a full log of the run.

If I recall correctly, the driver was due to retire and the run was set up to mark the occasion, unless I'm conflating it with something else.

 

[Harvester]

Must have been a 9F surely, I've heard of them becoming mixed up before, probably due to their broadly similar nature as well as their numbering.

You could well be right. With only 4ft 8in driving wheels a WD 2-8-0 at 90mph would most probably suffer serious damage to it’s motion.

 

[TheEdge]

Not for much longer with the way the T1 project is going in the states. A big part of the reason they're building it is to break Mallard's record.

Personally I find that aim a bit mean spirited. The days of steam locos across the globe vying for the record are long over, conducted by locos designed on paper and built over 80 years ago.

To build a brand new one, assisted and modified by new technology to take that record just seems like cheating.

Leave it in the glory days of the 1930/1940s.

 

[hexagon789]

If I recall correctly, the driver was due to retire and the run was set up to mark the occasion, unless I'm conflating it with something else.

No-no, that is correct.