A Merchant Navy at 140mph + other speed record myths.

[Strathclyder]

No-no, that is correct.

I was a bit uncertain about that particular detail 'cos Wikipedia's page on the 55s specifically mentions it. Just thought I'd make doubly sure lol

 

[hexagon789]

I was a bit uncertain about that particular detail 'cos Wikipedia's page on the 55s specifically mentions it. Just thought I'd make doubly sure lol

You mean that something which is factually accurate is on Wikipedia?!?

Will wonders never cease...

 

[70014IronDuke]

There are quite a few rumours of Mallard’s record being possibly beaten by US locos mainly on the Milwaukee Road.

The Milwaukee Road Class A 4-4-2s were built specifically for regular 100 mph service and there are plenty of claims of 120mph running though 112 is their highest officially recorded speed.

The later F7 4-6-4s were claimed to be 125mph capable.

Certainly 100 mph running was probably a daily occurrence and the railroad even provided 90mph restriction signs on certain curves.

Whether any of these locos ever topped 126 is not known but their baseline daily speed was higher to begin with than the other record breakers.

The Milwaukee’s Mechanical engineer C.M Bilty stated that on a test run an F7 ran 19 miles at over 100mph and 5 of those miles were at 120. The problem was the speedo needle hit the stop at 120. He believed that during those 5 miles 123-125 may have been reached.

There is also a claim by the French railway author Baron Gerard Vuillet that he timed an F7 at 125 and that it sustained 120 for over 4 miles.

However much the Brits (and I am one) love the recorded fact that Mallard briefly touched 126 mph in 1938, in all honesty we should take our hats off to both the Americans and - however much it is non-PC - the Germans when it comes to sustained, and presumably economically sustainable, high-speed running with steam traction. The Milwaukee line has to be the pinnacle of express passenger steam design, with 100 mph achieved day-in, day-out. A truly remarkable performance and a tribute to the engineer (GB usage) who designed them, the crews that worked them and the operating and maintenance staff that all contibuted to this.

However, according to fellow Nine Elms driver Jim Evans, writing in his - highly recommended - book 'Man of the Southern', the Standard class 5s - although good, solid locos - could rarely exceed 80 mph....even downhill.

I would have thought a Standard 5 in decent nick could make 90 mph ok, especially the Caprotti versions, though more likely they never needed to achieve this. I seem to remember, however, one report of an enthusiast going for the Bournemouth Belle some time towards the end of steam, so probably 1966, and being very disappointed to find a Standard 5 at the front. In the end, he reported a very lively run. Of course, this may have been sustained 80 - 85 - 90 mph more than anything explosive, but that would have been hard work with the heavy Belle loadings.

You could well be right. With only 4ft 8in driving wheels a WD 2-8-0 at 90mph would most probably suffer serious damage to it’s motion.

You'd have had a better chance of survival jumping off the footplate of a WD at 50 mph than staying on to attempt 90 mph, I should wager

 

[Strathclyder]

You mean that something which is factually accurate is on Wikipedia?!?

Will wonders never cease...

Of course, Wikipedia's reputation precedes it, but it has improved markedly over the last few years. Not perfect or infallible by any means, but much better than it was.

 

[Spamcan81]

However much the Brits (and I am one) love the recorded fact that Mallard briefly touched 126 mph in 1938, in all honesty we should take our hats off to both the Americans and - however much it is non-PC - the Germans when it comes to sustained, and presumably economically sustainable, high-speed running with steam traction. The Milwaukee line has to be the pinnacle of express passenger steam design, with 100 mph achieved day-in, day-out. A truly remarkable performance and a tribute to the engineer (GB usage) who designed them, the crews that worked them and the operating and maintenance staff that all contibuted to this.


I would have thought a Standard 5 in decent nick could make 90 mph ok, especially the Caprotti versions, though more likely they never needed to achieve this. I seem to remember, however, one report of an enthusiast going for the Bournemouth Belle some time towards the end of steam, so probably 1966, and being very disappointed to find a Standard 5 at the front. In the end, he reported a very lively run. Of course, this may have been sustained 80 - 85 - 90 mph more than anything explosive, but that would have been hard work with the heavy Belle loadings.

You'd have had a better chance of survival jumping off the footplate of a WD at 50 mph than staying on to attempt 90 mph, I should wager

Don't forget the New York Central's 4-8-4 Niagaras. Designed to and achieving 6000 hp day in, day out they could and did cruise at 100 mph on trains weighing 1000 tons.

 

[hexagon789]

Don't forget the New York Central's 4-8-4 Niagaras. Designed to and achieving 6000 hp day in, day out they could and did cruise at 100 mph on trains weighing 1000 tons.

The NYC had a system wide MAS of 85mph and was notable for being unusually strict in enforcing it. A 6mph overspeed was tolerated, more and drivers would be given demerit points.

If they accumulated sufficient in a given period, they could be suspended or demoted.

The highest officially recorded speed of a Niagra is only 95mph, higher is rumoured but the fact that nothing higher was recorded officially I think shows how strict the NYC was.

 

[Harvester]

I would have thought a Standard 5 in decent nick could make 90 mph ok, especially the Caprotti versions, though more likely they never needed to achieve this. I seem to remember, however, one report of an enthusiast going for the Bournemouth Belle some time towards the end of steam, so probably 1966, and being very disappointed to find a Standard 5 at the front. In the end, he reported a very lively run. Of course, this may have been sustained 80 - 85 - 90 mph more than anything explosive, but that would have been hard work with the heavy Belle loadings.

I can find only one log of a Standard 5 reaching 90mph. It was on Thursday 6/7/67 near Andover, and the loco 73043 was probably in badly run down condition by then. Driver De’Ath was driving, and may well have been tempting fate on that occasion!

 

[coradiafan2000]

Personally I find that aim a bit mean spirited. The days of steam locos across the globe vying for the record are long over, conducted by locos designed on paper and built over 80 years ago.

To build a brand new one, assisted and modified by new technology to take that record just seems like cheating.

Leave it in the glory days of the 1930/1940s.

I somewhat agree with that, although they're not JUST building it to break Mallard's record. I think that even if it does break the record (which considering how much more powerful it is it probably will), it won't feel as special as something coming from the a genuine engine from the 30s.

 

[cambsy]

Not a steam myth, but a long held preservation record, which lasted till Tornado, took it officially, at about 102.3mph, was the record breaking run of DucHess of Hamilton, which was lucky enough to have been on, from its Barton and Broughton(if correct)water stop, just north of Preston to its Carlisle water stop, where it achieved 85mph in the dip just before Lancaster, then on its descent from shap, between Penrith and Carlisle. Roundabout Lowther or Plumpton it reached 96 mph, and averaged 90mph for good few miles, all the while hauling in excess of 500 tonnes, which included a dead 47 in tow, it actually beat the crack Caledonian timing from passing through Lancaster to stopping in Carlisle, with far heavier load, and was supposedlet restricted to 60mph not 75mphn as no AWS.

The driver on this run was a well renowned driver, Les Jackson, who was retiring after this run, so was wanting to go out with the preservation record, so it was highly anticipated,there would be an exceptional effort ,on its mammoth Euston-Crewe-Carlisle-Glasgow-Edinburgh-Newcastle -York run, done over a Saturday and Sunday,in mid to late 90’s, Luck etc had to be there too, as Les had to get the nod from traction inspector Treeby(if name correct), who duly gave it, and backed by renowned driver Frank Santrian, who was firing that day.

After passing through Penrith at regulation 75 mph, Frank Santrian asked should he ease firing now, to which Les said, to keep up the firing as wanted to try reach Carlisle on time,by running very fast, which he did at 96mph, though he wanted the magic ton, but the speedo was over reading, so at 100mph he eased off slightly, so not getting the ton, he said he could have opened up a bit more, which wished he had done, he was disappointed and annoyed not to get the ton, and Frank Santrian, was known as fast driver too, with one mythical run, where he supposedly took Duchess of Hamilton through Wigan North Western southbound , at 91mph, while showboating etc, to fellow drivers etc on the platform, and trying to achieve the ton himself.


I have had a few modern diesel and electric traction, over the line speed or their permitted max speed, namely a 47/8 on a cab ride from Holyhead to Chester, doing 90mph on Anglesey and 90mph between Bangor and Chester, when line speed was 75 mph, and the 91’s and 225 sets, doing 135-140mph on ECML,in early to late 91’s, but id be interested to know what fastest they were clocked at on a normal passenger run?. I recorded 141-142mph, but im not sure of my accuracy, as timed mileposts, and was beginner.

 

[RPI]

I used to drink with a chap who was a fireman at Exmouth Junction during the late 50's until the shed closed, he claimed that a West Country with a reasonable load was more than capable of easily exceeding 100mph, he also claimed to have been on a T9 reaching similar speeds which I'm not sure how plausible that is.

Though these conversations were always after one or ten pints of the Amber nectar he wasn't generally considered as someone who would exaggerate or tell a tall story.

 

[coradiafan2000]

I used to drink with a chap who was a fireman at Exmouth Junction during the late 50's until the shed closed, he claimed that a West Country with a reasonable load was more than capable of easily exceeding 100mph, he also claimed to have been on a T9 reaching similar speeds which I'm not sure how plausible that is.

Though these conversations were always after one or ten pints of the Amber nectar he wasn't generally considered as someone who would exaggerate or tell a tall story.

I can believe a West Country reaching 100, especially an unrebuilt one. I could also believe a rebuilt one reaching 100 if the conditions were right, as they could generally keep to Merchant Navy timings when needed.

 

[Bevan Price]

I have had a few modern diesel and electric traction, over the line speed or their permitted max speed, namely a 47/8 on a cab ride from Holyhead to Chester, doing 90mph on Anglesey and 90mph between Bangor and Chester, when line speed was 75 mph, and the 91’s and 225 sets, doing 135-140mph on ECML,in early to late 91’s, but id be interested to know what fastest they were clocked at on a normal passenger run?. I recorded 141-142mph, but im not sure of my accuracy, as timed mileposts, and was beginner.

In their later years, some 47s had distinctly unreliable speedometers, which sometimes led to their being declared as "failures" and removed from trains. I had a 47/7 which averaged just over 75 mph between Chester and Prestatyn - at a time when the overall limit was still 75 mph. Speeds (as measured by GPS**) oscillated wildly with 105 mph through Flint.

(** Milepost locations were quite "dodgy" on parts of the North Wales Coast main line.)

 

[341o2]

What would a Duchess be capable of, on Stoke Bank ?

always feel theres more hidden power in a Duchess than an A4.

Didn't the Coronation reach 114mph during the rivalry between the LMS and LNER, therefore holding the record for fastest train for a while?
The next attempt by the LNER could only achieve 112mph, but there then followed Mallard's epic run. No other railway company in this country had a suitable length of track to attempt to challenge this.
In fact, the Coronation had to brake hard approaching (edited) Crewe on the aforementioned run, thankfully the only casulalty was some of the dining car crockery.

I can believe a West Country reaching 100, especially an unrebuilt one. I could also believe a rebuilt one reaching 100 if the conditions were right, as they could generally keep to Merchant Navy timings when needed.

My username is based on the last unrebuilt Bulleid pacific on BR, and it is disputed whether it actually achieved "the ton"

Also there were the three 4-6-0's of the CIE, which had several runs, oh so near to the "ton", the boys at Inchicore said "If only we could get our hands on some decent coal....."

 

[hexagon789]

Didn't the Coronation reach 114mph during the rivalry between the LMS and LNER, therefore holding the record for fastest train for a while?
The next attempt by the LNER could only achieve 112mph, but there then followed Mallard's epic run. No other railway company in this country had a suitable length of track to attempt to challenge this.
In fact, the Coronation had to brake hard approaching Rugby (hope I remember it right) on the aforementioned run, thankfully the only casulalty was some of the dining car crockery.

Yes, though the two official recorders on board both independently claimed 112.5 was the maximum, but the officials on the footplate read 114 on the speed recorder...

...who's word was taken by LMS management?

What isn't disputed is that the train entered Crewe too fast, taking 20mph turnouts in excess of 50mph. Though the LMS would later use it as an example to prove how safe it was, because a train taking a crossover at 2.5 times the speed limit is a good way to demonstrate safety...

 

[Taunton]

However much the Brits (and I am one) love the recorded fact that Mallard briefly touched 126 mph in 1938, in all honesty we should take our hats off to the Americans ... The Milwaukee line has to be the pinnacle of express passenger steam design, with 100 mph achieved day-in, day-out.

Then there was "Death Valley Scotty" and "The Coyote Special", on the Santa Fe in 1905, which for the distance elapsed must be without equal. 2,300 miles in 44 hours, an overall average of 52mph, including long runs over the plains at around 100mph by multiple locos and crews in succession. They only stopped to change locos and take on water. A journalist on board wrote some breathless prose, some hyped and some downright ludicrous (such as changing locos on the move), but the speeds attained and overall timing are not in doubt. Never beaten until the diesel streamliners came along, and still really isn't by Amtrak along the same route (but then City of Truro was faster down Wellington bank than Class 800s are nowadays.

Here's one description of the run:

The Scott Special, also known as the Coyote Special, the Death Valley Coyote or the Death Valley Scotty Special, was a one-time, record-breaking passenger train operated by the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway (Santa Fe) from Los Angeles, California, to Chicago, Illinois, at the request of Walter E. Scott, known as "Death Valley Scotty".

Scott Special - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Coyote", incidentally, an American desert wild dog, capable of great speeds themselves, is pronounced 'Ki-yo-dee", a Spanish rendition of a Native American name.