A proper cup of tea?

[OldandRambling]

An American friend was recently viewing a BR publicity film from the early 1960's called Spick and Span. The film is about carriage cleaners, etc. They asked me what year the ceramic cups, shown as left on the seats by passengers after their drinks, were replaced by paper cups?

Spic and Span BR film...

 

[StephenHunter]

Can't answer, but I do recall that in one of Len Deighton's early novels, the character's office has some BR Southern Region cups in it - perhaps they were sold off in batches once withdrawn?

 

[Gloster]

Can't answer, but I do recall that in one of Len Deighton's early novels, the character's office has some BR Southern Region cups in it - perhaps they were sold off in batches once withdrawn?

More likely ‘accidentally’ found their way into people’s bags, etc. I doubt they were sold off, but instead were kept in use until they were too chipped, cracked or grubby for further use, and then dumped. It may also be a nod his to his former employers as he worked for the Southern (probably Railway rather than Region, but possibly both) before his National Service.

Regarding the original question, I think it would have been around the early 1980s that china disappeared. But that is just a guess based on memory.

 

[UrieS15]

Instinctively I would suspect it might have been part of the great shake-up following Prue Leith's appointment but I am uncertain of that date.

 

[Gloster]

Instinctively I would suspect it might have been part of the great shake-up following Prue Leith's appointment but I am uncertain of that date.

Wikipedia says that she was appointed to the British Railways Board in 1977.

 

[hexagon789]

An American friend was recently viewing a BR publicity film from the early 1960's called Spick and Span. The film is about carriage cleaners, etc. They asked me what year the ceramic cups, shown as left on the seats by passengers after their drinks, were replaced by paper cups?

Spic and Span BR film...

Afaik First Class/Pullman dining cars still had 'proper' cups at least the revamped Pullman/Executive services introduced in the mid-1980s did, just those from buffets and trolleys became disposable paper cups in the 'MaxPax' revolution.

 

[Gloster]

Weren’t the original replacements those foam insulated polystyrene cups (if that is the correct term)? Didn’t paper/cardboard ones come later?

 

[matchmaker]

GNER first class in the HSTs had proper cups.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The horrendous Maxpak tea and coffee came in around 1977 as a means of providing stock control and fiddling. They were plastic cups , sealed , with a batch of powder in for your drink of choice - foul in the extreme and the staff soon worked out you could re-gather the cups , perfunctorily rinse them and sell them again. We had a training manager who implored us a management trainees to use a pen to stab them and render them useless. No one of course worried about recycling plastic in those days.

BR buffets and catering cars tended to use sea-green cups and saucers (quite attractive really and you can probably find them on E-bay) , along with "sets" with teapots and milk / sugar bowls - Maxpak was serious dumbing down IMHO. Did not last long.

Virtually every train crew depot and signal box I frequented in those days - had "spare" sea green crockery to use for visitors.

I saw a very old painted sign on East Ham station advertising tea for 2d (old pennies) a cup - so how did the LPTB or District Railway get it;s cups back ?

 

[randyrippley]

Can't answer, but I do recall that in one of Len Deighton's early novels, the character's office has some BR Southern Region cups in it - perhaps they were sold off in batches once withdrawn?

FWIW back in the 1970s my mother purchased from the local street market several new cups & saucers labelled "British Railway Hotels" or similar. White with yellow trim and lettering, and a yellow sun printed on the cup. No sign of the BR double arrows or other BR branding
These were new (as in unused) and had obviously got onto the market as surplus/redundant stock. Possibly a cancelled order from the privatisation moves around then?

 

[StephenHunter]

Eastern Region services did call at East Ham until 1962 as well.

 

[WesternLancer]

Is the question about on train or at station TF outlets? I'm guessing on train, but not for 'restaurant car' meal type service.

If the caption is correct this says 1979 - shows coffee in crockery, not plastic/paper cups, but I think refers to at stations.

Who makes the greatest cup of real coffee ? (Travellers Fare)

Original British Rail Travellers-Fare poster from 1979, issued after the appointment of the restaurateur and caterer Prue Leith to the British Railways Board to improve the company’s catering offer. This poster was part of a campaign to launch a much-improved service

www.twentiethcenturyposters.com

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Eastern Region services did call at East Ham until 1962 as well.

Good point - the signage (which is obviously protected as the station is Grade 2 listed) , is on the westbound District platform. Minor digression.

 

[OldandRambling]

I remember the Maxpack tea, a truly disgusting drink!

I think the film mentioned in post #1, showing the gathering of crockery cups from train coach seats by the coach cleaning ladies, must be an anomaly, maybe created just to enhance the storyline of the film?

Thanks for all the replies!

 

[nlogax]

I remember the Maxpack tea, a truly disgusting drink!

Those machines still live on in some offices. Want a plastic cup full of warm beige liquid that could either be tea or coffee? Maxpax to the rescue.

 

[WesternLancer]

I remember the Maxpack tea, a truly disgusting drink!

I think the film mentioned in post #1, showing the gathering of crockery cups from train coach seats by the coach cleaning ladies, must be an anomaly, maybe created just to enhance the storyline of the film?

Thanks for all the replies!

Is that possible however? If you had trains with buffet car counters, in the era before widespread use of polysterene cups and disposable stuff - would they have not served hot drinks that people might have taken back to their seats? Albeit not easy to do with hand operated sliding doors between carriages etc?
Or would they have been using paper cups for hot drinks even at that stage at buffet takeaway counter?

 

[John Luxton]

I bought a small green tea pot from Collectors Corner 1978/9 which I still have, though sadly now chipped, after it fell of a shelf. They were selling them for 25p I recall.

Made made Dudson of Hanley it is marked CS-BTC and though new when I bought it must have been lurking round for many years given it was marked BTC.

However, they were still being used in sleeping cars at this time as I recall several sleeping car trips with an All Lines ticket and being served tea in the morning with one of these tea-pots.

 

[WesternLancer]

The sea green Dudson crockery (stoneware?) must have been produced in vast quantities for BR as you do occasionally see it second hand. Of course Dudson still exist as a major stoke based catering sector crockery manufacturer
https://dudson.com/
Pretty sure I have a BR marked tea set I picked up in a bric a brac shop some years ago. I also have one in a darker matt brown glaze that appears to be a higher quality in terms of its 'looks'
eg this sort of green tea pot

VINTAGE DUDSON BROTHERS. BRITISH RAIL GREEN STONEWARE TEA-FOR-ONE TEAPOT, 1970s | #423215906

A vintage Dudson Brothers tea-for-one teapot for British Rail, 1970s. This chunky little teapot was produced for British Rail in the 1970s and is marked with a date of either 1973, 75 or 78. I believe

www.worthpoint.com

This sort of brown item

Vintage BR British Railways Cream / Milk Jugs Double Arrow Dudson Brothers 1970s | eBay

<p>3 Vintage BR British Railways Cream / Milk Jugs featuring the BR Double Arrow on their bases and made Dudson Brothers Pottery in the 1970s. </p><br><p>The larger jug is 7cm tall and the smaller jugs are 6.5cm tall. These items have a very nice function utilitarian feel to...

www.ebay.co.uk

Anyway - back in 1986 I worked for Travellers Fare in a Casey Jones outlet - aiming to emulate the McDonald's style fast food offer. Being 'fast food' all the products were served in disposable containers, and I think hot drinks were polystyrene cups, cold drinks waxed paper. We did have a seating area for eating in - it had been the TF buffet before conversion to Casey Jones.

Down in the cellar where we stored the disposable cups etc were supplies old green Dudson crockery no doubt from TF buffet days - some of this tended to end up in use in the staff rest room I think too.

Anyway - I well remember one day a chap coming in for a cup of tea and bemoaning the disposable polystyrene cups and saying he preferred to drink from 'proper crockery' given he was planning to sit in the restaurant area. We can't have been very busy at that particular moment, so I asked him to hang on, I nipped down to the cellar, got one of these old Dudson cups and saucers, washed it up, and served his tea in that. I recall he was slightly taken aback that I could achieve this in response to his complaint / request!

 

[ainsworth74]

Anyway - I well remember one day a chap coming in for a cup of tea and bemoaning the disposable polystyrene cups and saying he preferred to drink from 'proper crockery' given he was planning to sit in the restaurant area. We can't have been very busy at that particular moment, so I asked him to hang on, I nipped down to the cellar, got one of these old Dudson cups and saucers, washed it up, and served his tea in that. I recall he was slightly taken aback that I could achieve this in response to his complaint / request!

Excellent! Always fun when you can wrong foot someone complaining like that

 

[WesternLancer]

Excellent! Always fun when you can wrong foot someone complaining like that

Yes. I seem to think I had some sympathy with his point of view, and perhaps I'd not long seen the crockery left in the cellar or some such. At this distance I can't recall whether his motivation was that too much disposable stuff was wasteful, or if just more pleasant not to drink out of paper / polystyrene etc. I'd have probably had sympathy for both points of view. Don't recall he was rude in any way - but I I do tend to think there was an element of the bemoaning 'unstoppable progress of modern life dumbing stuff down' being an element of it. So it appealed to me to rise to the challenge as opposed to shrugging my shoulders and saying sorry.

It was probably in recollection of the incident that I picked up same style BR tea set in the bric a brac shop many years later - it has certainly stuck in my mind to this day.

I do recall a colleague who would discretely recommend a trad cafe just outside the station to people clearly seeking a less 'fast food' dining experience

 

[yorksrob]

The sea green Dudson crockery (stoneware?) must have been produced in vast quantities for BR as you do occasionally see it second hand. Of course Dudson still exist as a major stoke based catering sector crockery manufacturer
https://dudson.com/

Anyway - I well remember one day a chap coming in for a cup of tea and bemoaning the disposable polystyrene cups and saying he preferred to drink from 'proper crockery' given he was planning to sit in the restaurant area. We can't have been very busy at that particular moment, so I asked him to hang on, I nipped down to the cellar, got one of these old Dudson cups and saucers, washed it up, and served his tea in that. I recall he was slightly taken aback that I could achieve this in response to his complaint / request!

Excellent customer service !

 

[matchmaker]

Not railway related, but I had a trip on the P&O Scottish Ferries ferry "St Magnus" from Lerwick to Aberdeen in 1984. It was a cargo/passenger ferry with accommodation for only 12 passengers. There was no passenger dining accommodation so dinner was served in the staff messroom. Imagine my surprise when instead of the expected burger and chips you got on their passenger ferries, I was served a full 4 course meal - with fish course! - on real crockery marked up with "North of Scotland, Orkney and Shetland Steam Navigation Company". I don't know how old it must have been!

 

[OldandRambling]

Is that possible however? If you had trains with buffet car counters, in the era before widespread use of polysterene cups and disposable stuff - would they have not served hot drinks that people might have taken back to their seats? Albeit not easy to do with hand operated sliding doors between carriages etc?
Or would they have been using paper cups for hot drinks even at that stage at buffet takeaway counter?

My problem is that I have no idea if "take away" buffet services existed ON TRAINS in 1962, the year the film was made. I imagine one could get a sit down meal in the restaurant car of the longer distance "posh " trains, but did a Buffet service exist at that time. I assume the change over to buffet service replaced the restaurant cars? I honestly can't imagine passengers walking back to their seats carrying the old china cups? Maybe there was a trolley tea service served at the seats in china cups? At least my USA chum has stirred up a bit of a storm in a tea cup...

 

[WesternLancer]

My problem is that I have no idea if "take away" buffet services existed ON TRAINS in 1962, the year the film was made. I imagine one could get a sit down meal in the restaurant car of the longer distance "posh " trains, but did a Buffet service exist at that time. I assume the change over to buffet service replaced the restaurant cars? I honestly can't imagine passengers walking back to their seats carrying the old china cups? Maybe there was a trolley tea service served at the seats in china cups? At least my USA chum has stirred up a bit of a storm in a tea cup...

Well, this is the key question!
But there were 1st gen DMUs with griddle car counters - eg see here entry ref 1961

Class 124 DMU Operations

The history of Diesel Multiple Units (DMUs / railcars) in Britain.

www.railcar.co.uk

and Cambridge Buffet Car Expresses
and
I assume lots of shorter distance BR(SR) services were buffet cars only not restaurant car

So for me the question, as you say, is would you have been expected to have your refreshments in the seated area adjacent to the buffet car counter area or did people walk back to areas where they were seated for their journey, or a bit of both?

Perhaps forum members around at the time can shed some light....

 

[Merle Haggard]

Some observations on the above;

There were buffet cars pre-nationalisation on all 4 railways. Who can overlook Gresley Buffets? Edit; B.R. 1950s introduced Cafeteria Cars ('Caf-cars) but I think in all cases the passenger was expected to consume in the buffet car, not take back to seat. I think I can remember something on the lines of 'please vacate your seat in the Buffet Car when you have finished' notices.
At one stage there was a segment in Maxpax cups that could be removed and placed in a collection box which resulted in a BR donation of (I think) a half p to charity*, the driving force being that removing the token prevented the cup from being re-filled. However, a jar of Nescafe could sometimes still be seen behind the buffet counter... There was a court case, bought by BR, against a buffet car steward who was caught selling his own sandwiches. The court (probably with the bias against nationalised industries of the day) I recall decided that it was ok for him to do this as long as he sold BR ones as well.
I thought Dudson ceased trading a little while ago. The Virgin WC first class mugs were Dudson for a long time, right at the end (I think - might be confused with Avanti) they were replaced with ones with no name on the bottom (just a coloured star). East Coast also used Dudson, but plain mugs.

*With publicity by a certain reprobate with white hair and blond (well, yellow) teeth.

 

[WesternLancer]

Some observations on the above;


I thought Dudson ceased trading a little while ago.

Dudson link in my post above but I see here:

About us – dudson.com

In April 2019 Churchill China Plc, purchased the Dudson brand to strengthens its hospitality focus and add a greater depth and variety to its own portfolio. Thus introducing a new and exciting era for the Dudson brand.

Pretty sure I was eating off Dudson crockery in a pub or restaurant not that long ago - pre lock down obv. I guess have a tendency to "plate turning"

This Stoke-on-Trent pottery has been spotted abroad

We asked readers to send us their photographs of Stoke-on-Trent made pottery abroad - and here's the result

www.stokesentinel.co.uk

Known as plate-turners, us Potteries folk not only turn pottery over to look at the backstamp but also turn heads when we do it!

From plates and mugs, to cups and saucers, we just can't help but looking to see where the pottery has been made and are always delighted when we discover it has been manufactured in Stoke-on-Trent or North Staffordshire.

From Churchill and Steelite, Emma Bridgewater, Dudson and Wedgwood our pottery is certainly recognised the world over.

 

[matchmaker]

The 1956 Swindon Edinburgh - Glasgow DMUs had a buffet car, as had the Swindon Class 120 and 126.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Dudson link in my post above but I see here:

About us – dudson.com

In April 2019 Churchill China Plc, purchased the Dudson brand to strengthens its hospitality focus and add a greater depth and variety to its own portfolio. Thus introducing a new and exciting era for the Dudson brand.

Pretty sure I was eating off Dudson crockery in a pub or restaurant not that long ago - pre lock down obv. I guess have a tendency to "plate turning"

Wikipedia () gives Dudson as 'going into administration 4th April 2019'. Sadly (for the workforce), sounds like Churchill only bought the name.

I do 'crockery turning' too. Tip; when practising, make sure the cup is completely empty first

 

[WesternLancer]

Wikipedia () gives Dudson as 'going into administration 4th April 2019'. Sadly (for the workforce), sounds like Churchill only bought the name.

I do 'crockery turning' too. Tip; when practising, make sure the cup is completely empty first

Thanks Merle, sad to read that - and now I re-read my own post I note their use of the word "brand", which relates to what you say.

Also, I will bear that sound advice in mind, esp if it's, say, a dinner plate and not just a cup

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The GWR had "Quick Lunch" cars in the 1930's . Matching their fine art-deco station lunch counters. Not many granted.