A question about Class 800s/801s/802s

[Mintona]

I’m really confused then. A lot of my colleagues have notice a number of them being faster, I’ve posted about it here and other drivers at other depots have posted the same on the wnxx forum. I absolutely guarantee that the unit numbers I posted above are producing high 80% power as opposed to low 70% power on each GU, with the exception of the GU with no APS output which is producing on average around 93%, through the entire acceleration range, not up to around 30mph and tailing off as they were before. We are hitting Saltford Tunnel at 100 now on departure from Bristol, it used to be a struggle to reach 100 before braking for Bath. And still was yesterday when I had 800031 and 800008, neither of which were producing higher engine performance.

Either that or we are all having a mass delusion. Only yesterday another driver walked into the messroom and said ‘wow, those uprated 800s really fly don’t they?’

 

[Railperf]

Correct. The 5 cars that have been done on my list (a few days old now) are only 10, 13, 17 and 22. Of the 9 cars only 301, 304, 305, 311, 315 and 321 remained to be modified. 305 is the black sheep of the fleet, having hardly turned a wheel since May due to a recurrent fault.

It’s being done at the rate of about one a day so when I return from leave in 10 days time, I expect around 50% of the 800 fleet to have had the software update.

Thanka Clarence. Have any 802s been upgraded yet?

 

[Railperf]

I’m really confused then. A lot of my colleagues have notice a number of them being faster, I’ve posted about it here and other drivers at other depots have posted the same on the wnxx forum. I absolutely guarantee that the unit numbers I posted above are producing high 80% power as opposed to low 70% power on each GU, with the exception of the GU with no APS output which is producing on average around 93%, through the entire acceleration range, not up to around 30mph and tailing off as they were before. We are hitting Saltford Tunnel at 100 now on departure from Bristol, it used to be a struggle to reach 100 before braking for Bath. And still was yesterday when I had 800031 and 800008, neither of which were producing higher engine performance.

Either that or we are all having a mass delusion. Only yesterday another driver walked into the messroom and said ‘wow, those uprated 800s really fly don’t they?’

Wasn't the reported power figure for the 'super' upgrade now between 92 and 95%

 

[Railperf]

800003, 800005 and 800028 are all producing much higher power and better acceleration/top speed than previously. I haven’t driven all of them so I can’t comment on exactly which have been done but those three have definitely had something changed. 800025, 800026 and 800027 definitely haven’t yet.

I’ve only had 800/3s today so haven’t had a chance to check any others.

Could it be possible they are test units that are nor officially upgraded?
As a driver, have you had any official notification of the extra power from managers and D.I's ..or is it just your 'feel' of the units that is telling you that?

 

[Kurolus Rex]

If these units are getting even faster, i can only imagine what their acceleration will be like in the future. They're very quick already!

On a somewhat related note, I've noticed there's a number of drivers of these units in this thread; what sort of driving technique is used for pulling out of stations (Notches etc)? What speed is Notch 4 reached?

Thanks for the very detailed replies!

 

[irish_rail]

If these units are getting even faster, i can only imagine what their acceleration will be like in the future. They're very quick already!

On a somewhat related note, I've noticed there's a number of drivers of these units in this thread; what sort of driving technique is used for pulling out of stations (Notches etc)? What speed is Notch 4 reached?

Thanks for the very detailed replies!

Varies from driver to driver. I don't like to throw it wide open (I do on HSTs) but find it gives a very unsatisfying ride when doing so on 800s. Doesn't feel like a train more like a car! Also don't want to knock people over who have just boarded and are finding there seat. There have been several incidents of staff falling over due to sudden acceleration apparently.. .

 

[TractiveEffort]

Could it be possible they are test units that are nor officially upgraded?
As a driver, have you had any official notification of the extra power from managers and D.I's ..or is it just your 'feel' of the units that is telling you that?

No, it’s not possible, they haven’t been done yet.

For the 9 cars, the drivers should be able to tell, as they will have dynamic braking reinstated.

 

[Mintona]

Could it be possible they are test units that are nor officially upgraded?
As a driver, have you had any official notification of the extra power from managers and D.I's ..or is it just your 'feel' of the units that is telling you that?

I can just feel the difference. We wouldn’t be told about that sort of thing I doubt. This is frustrating me a lot because I know I’m reaching higher speed quicker. I sadly don’t have a way of taking a photograph of the TMS screen whilst driving along without losing my job, and I’d rather not do that just to win a point on the internet. I’ve got 800032 later, so will be having a look on that to see what it is telling me.

 

[Mintona]

If these units are getting even faster, i can only imagine what their acceleration will be like in the future. They're very quick already!

On a somewhat related note, I've noticed there's a number of drivers of these units in this thread; what sort of driving technique is used for pulling out of stations (Notches etc)? What speed is Notch 4 reached?

Thanks for the very detailed replies!

I vary depending on whether I’m in diesel or electric mode. In both I go straight for notch 2 once it starts moving. Then diesel, notch 3 at 8mph and notch 4 at 15mph. And in electric, notch 3 at 15mph and notch 4 at 30mph. I don’t like to put down too much power too quickly, a customer host told me off once when I was new on them

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Varies from driver to driver. I don't like to throw it wide open (I do on HSTs) but find it gives a very unsatisfying ride when doing so on 800s. Doesn't feel like a train more like a car! Also don't want to knock people over who have just boarded and are finding there seat. There have been several incidents of staff falling over due to sudden acceleration apparently.. .

That's not good if there have been several incidents of staff falling over!

 

[Kurolus Rex]

I vary depending on whether I’m in diesel or electric mode. In both I go straight for notch 2 once it starts moving. Then diesel, notch 3 at 8mph and notch 4 at 15mph. And in electric, notch 3 at 15mph and notch 4 at 30mph. I don’t like to put down too much power too quickly, a customer host told me off once when I was new on them

Thanks, exactly what i was looking for!

Do you have any problems maintaining lower speeds of say 60mph or lower in electric mode? Do you have to "fight" the controls at all?

 

[Mintona]

Thanks, exactly what i was looking for!

Do you have any problems maintaining lower speeds of say 60mph or lower in electric mode? Do you have to "fight" the controls at all?

No, not at all. Nobody should ever be fighting the controls to drive a train.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

No, not at all. Nobody should ever be fighting the controls to drive a train.

To clarify, i was talking about having to constantly adjust the power to maintain a speed or is this not the case?

 

[Chris217]

Can IEP trains operate in dual mode at the same time?
For instance if a pantograpgh fails on one in a pair of 800s,can it run on diesel whilst the other still runs on electric or would 2 drivers be needed for that operation.
The simple answer would probably be
Switch to whatever mode both work on if a fault occurs.
Wonder if it's been tried though?

 

[Kurolus Rex]

Can IEP trains operate in dual mode at the same time?
For instance if a pantograpgh fails on one in a pair of 800s,can it run on diesel whilst the other still runs on electric or would 2 drivers be needed for that operation.
The simple answer would probably be
Switch to whatever mode both work on if a fault occurs.
Wonder if it's been tried though?

I believe they can, not sure if another driver is required though.

 

[II]

Can IEP trains operate in dual mode at the same time?
For instance if a pantograpgh fails on one in a pair of 800s,can it run on diesel whilst the other still runs on electric or would 2 drivers be needed for that operation.
The simple answer would probably be
Switch to whatever mode both work on if a fault occurs.
Wonder if it's been tried though?

There is a dual mode, where you can select which unit runs in which mode on the TMS - no second driver required. I don't think it's been used 'in anger' yet though and probably isn't worth the effort for the small gain. It would be something a driver would only do under instruction from Hitachi.

 

[Railperf]

Thanks, exactly what i was looking for!

Do you have any problems maintaining lower speeds of say 60mph or lower in electric mode? Do you have to "fight" the controls at all?

Once the train reaches 60mph the driver can set the speed limiter which should hold the speed subject to gradient and power notch. I'm told it works best on level and slightly rising track but is not so effective on steeper downhill gradients as it cannot apply the brakes to keep to the speed selected.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

Once the train reaches 60mph the driver can set the speed limiter which should hold the speed subject to gradient and power notch. I'm told it works best on level and slightly rising track but is not so effective on steeper downhill gradients as it cannot apply the brakes to keep to the speed selected.

Ah, so similar to the system on the Class 91s/Mk4 DVTs then?

 

[Railperf]

If these units are getting even faster, i can only imagine what their acceleration will be like in the future. They're very quick already!

I don't believe the modified 800s will be any quicker than a Class 802 in electric mode - which is very rapid indeed.
But it is the diesel acceleration on both the 800s and 802s which is being enhanced. The start from 0 to 30/40mph has been reasonably good..but after that the rate of acceleration in diesel mode has been poor. 0 to 60 mph in appx 90 seconds for an 802 vs 43 seconds for an 802 in electric mode. 0 to 100mph in 5.5 mins for an 800 diesel, 4 .5 min for an 802 diesel vs less than 2 mins for an 802 in electric mode and 2.5 mins for an 800 in electric mode.
Diesel only running incurs up to a 2 min time loss between stations on the main 100/125mph sections of track - if all engines are running and healthy. And even greater time loss with engines shut down.
So greater diesel acceleration is going to be a huge benefit if a unit does have to remain in diesel mode.

 

[Railperf]

Ah, so similar to the system on the Class 91s/Mk4 DVTs then?

No - the system on board the 90's and 91 is more like a cruise control as it can apply the rheostatic brake to maintain the speed downhill.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

No - the system on board the 90's and 91 is more like a cruise control as it can apply the rheostatic brake to maintain the speed downhill.

Ah okay, i didn't know that it was linked to the brakes on a 91.

Is there any reason to have a "speed limiter" rather than a cruise control? 390s have cruise controls i believe and they're 15-20 years older than the 80x series.

 

[Railperf]

Ah okay, i didn't know that it was linked to the brakes on a 91.

Is there any reason to have a "speed limiter" rather than a cruise control? 390s have cruise controls i believe and they're 15-20 years older than the 80x series.

That is a question for the DfT / Hitachi. But from the majority of driver comments - cruise control doesn't seem to be very popular for drivers / operators. I guess there are safety reasons why it is better to have the driver focused on the speed of his train. And cruise control doesn't always seem to be well suited to the characteristics of some motive power and the routes they travel on.
From an energy saving point of view - i believe in some countries cruise control was disabled because drivers were able to better manage the energy usage - coasting more - where cruise control might be applying and maintaining power.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

That is a question for the DfT / Hitachi. But from the majority of driver comments - cruise control doesn't seem to be very popular for drivers / operators. I guess there are safety reasons why it is better to have the driver focused on the speed of his train. And cruise control doesn't always seem to be well suited to the characteristics of some motive power and the routes they travel on.
From an energy saving point of view - i believe in some countries cruise control was disabled because drivers were able to better manage the energy usage - coasting more - where cruise control might be applying and maintaining power.

I've heard the safety argument before, but then 390s have operated on the WCML for nearly 2 decades now with them and i'm not aware of drivers speeding being a common occurrence because they weren't paying attention to their speed, correct me if i'm wrong though. As long as the drivers are well trained and don't over rely on it i don't see it being a problem unless i'm missing something here. If anything, it would allow them to spend more time focusing on speed limits, landmarks, signals etc. Do 390 drivers still use the speed set or has it been abandoned?

Speaking of coasting, how well do the 80x series coast?

 

[PudseyBearHST]

I've heard the safety argument before, but then 390s have operated on the WCML for nearly 2 decades now with them and i'm not aware of drivers speeding being a common occurrence because they weren't paying attention to their speed, correct me if i'm wrong though. As long as the drivers are well trained and don't over rely on it i don't see it being a problem unless i'm missing something here. If anything, it would allow them to spend more time focusing on speed limits, landmarks, signals etc. Do 390 drivers still use the speed set or has it been abandoned?

Speaking of coasting, how well do the 80x series coast?

The speed set button is like marmite; some drivers love it and use it all the time whilst others including myself don’t like it and never normally use it. Yes, it does mean that it is one less thing to worry about but as it is, units aren’t hard to drive/operate. If you’re on the Trent valley where nothing much happens with long distances of 125mph and decide to put it in speed set, the journey is going to be even more boring and might end up day dreaming. Plus it’s good for me not to get used to the ‘luxury’ of speed set because if I’m working a Class 221, I might not be very happy that I have to keep messing about with the combined power brake controller to maintain speed.

 

[Railperf]

The speed set button is like marmite; some drivers love it and use it all the time whilst others including myself don’t like it and never normally use it. Yes, it does mean that it is one less thing to worry about but as it is, units aren’t hard to drive/operate. If you’re on the Trent valley where nothing much happens with long distances of 125mph and decide to put it in speed set, the journey is going to be even more boring and might end up day dreaming. Plus it’s good for me not to get used to the ‘luxury’ of speed set because if I’m working a Class 221, I might not be very happy that I have to keep messing about with the combined power brake controller to maintain speed.

As i understand it, the speed 'set'on 390s is different to the speed 'limiter' on 80X trains. Speed limiter on 80X means driver sets power and the computer applies whatever power necessary to attain and keep speed below the limit set in relation to the power notch selected. But on steep downhill gradients - where the train will pick up speed with zero power - the speed limiter does not apply any brakes. Whereas i understand the 390 speed set will apply the brake to the set speed. Please correct me if i am wrong.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

As i understand it, the speed 'set'on 390s is different to the speed 'limiter' on 80X trains. Speed limiter on 80X means driver sets power and the computer applies whatever power necessary to attain and keep speed below the limit set in relation to the power notch selected. But on steep downhill gradients - where the train will pick up speed with zero power - the speed limiter does not apply any brakes. Whereas i understand the 390 speed set will apply the brake to the set speed. Please correct me if i am wrong.

That’s correct with regard to Class 390s for the normal speed set button.
(However, there is also a wash plant setting which is speed set of 4mph but the brakes will not come on to hold speed for falling gradients.)

 

[Railperf]

Can you accidentally press the wash plant setting at 125mph?

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Can you accidentally press the wash plant setting at 125mph?

No, on a Class 390 it can be only done when stationary. You use the hill start to take power, press the speed set button then release the hill start. It is never used or at least not in my depot anyway. However, It is fairly easy to press the snow brake button instead of speed set by accident because they are fairly close to each other.

On a Class 221, there is a car wash slow speed button but again not used at my depot. No idea what would happen if you pressed it at 125mph. If the brakes do not apply to hold speed for falling gradients, presumably nothing would happen apart from unable to take anymore power.

You sound like me when I started haha... “what happens if you press the uncouple button when you’re doing 125” or “will the doors open if you press the door enable buttons at 125”

 

[Railperf]

No, on a Class 390 it can be only done when stationary. You use the hill start to take power, press the speed set button then release the hill start. It is never used or at least not in my depot anyway. However, It is fairly easy to press the snow brake button instead of speed set by accident because they are fairly close to each other.

On a Class 221, there is a car wash slow speed button but again not used at my depot. No idea what would happen if you pressed it at 125mph. If the brakes do not apply to hold speed for falling gradients, presumably nothing would happen apart from unable to take anymore power.

You sound like me when I started haha... “what happens if you press the uncouple button when you’re doing 125” or “will the doors open if you press the door enable buttons at 125”

You also have some sort of 'boost' button to deliver more power for acceleration when running late. Otherwise the Pendolino's are running around in an Eco mode that blunts their acceleration somewhat compared to when they were first introduced. How do you get on with that?

I'm guessing the performance of LNER's 80xs would have been interesting on the WCML this weekend!

 

[PudseyBearHST]

You also have some sort of 'boost' button to deliver more power for acceleration when running late. Otherwise the Pendolino's are running around in an Eco mode that blunts their acceleration somewhat compared to when they were first introduced. How do you get on with that?

I'm guessing the performance of LNER's 80xs would have been interesting on the WCML this weekend!

Again, it varies by driver. A few will drive in boost mode all the time but I personally just leave it on the default setting which is eco mode. You can change to boost mode using the TMS. Even in eco mode, there is usually enough time/padding to be on time if not a few minutes early assuming obviously you don’t encounter any delays or cautionary aspects.

The only time usually I’ll have boost mode on is either when there is a traction motor isolated or locked (in which case boost mode is put on by default) or when relieving a driver at Preston, if it’s already put in boost mode I probably won’t bother changing it back to eco mode. Also, I might put it on when train is delayed by more than a few minutes.

On top of my head, there is no difference up to 50mph and then beyond 50mph, in eco mode only 85% of the traction power is used.

Reminds me actually, I want to try timing 0-125mph with and without boost mode and 221s.