A Return that is not technically a Return

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HMS Ark Royal

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First of all, sorry if there is already a thread about it - looked, but couldn't find one...


One of the basic "laws" of the railways is that if you want to return from the station you set off from, you must purchase a return ticket. However, some stations have services that are loops such as this one

2H81 0646 Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Piccadilly


If I wanted to travel on this train throughout the entire journey, how would I get a ticket for it? I have tried testing it online and by the ticket machines, but it does not seem to work at all - I keep getting an invalid destination notice.
 
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yorkie

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If I wanted to travel on this train throughout the entire journey, how would I get a ticket for it? I have tried testing it online and by the ticket machines, but it does not seem to work at all - I keep getting an invalid destination notice.
Manchester - Hadfield return, or a Manchester - Glossop return. Or a GM Ranger, Wayfarer etc.
 

furlong

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Perhaps a return from Manchester to Ashburys will suffice?

Outward 06.46-06.51
Return 06.51-07.59

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing
trains;
 

Starmill

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I don't see why not. This is a single.
 

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Ianno87

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Perhaps a return from Manchester to Ashburys will suffice?

Outward 06.46-06.51
Return 06.51-07.59

Does the 'no double back' rule not trump the 'direct train' rule in such a case where multiple stops are repeated in a train's journey?
 

Starmill

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Does the 'no double back' rule not trump the 'direct train' rule in such a case where multiple stops are repeated in a train's journey?

It might do, and it might not. As above, it appears NRE thinks not.
 

yorkie

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Does the 'no double back' rule not trump the 'direct train' rule in such a case where multiple stops are repeated in a train's journey?
where is the "no double back rule" though?

You don't need to check the Routeing Guide when taking an advertised through train.

The question is whether or not it's advertised as a through train...
 

Ianno87

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I think at Manchester Piccadilly (at least) they're advertised as "Glossop via Hadfield" (morning peak) or "Hadfield via Glossop" (evening peak)
 

furlong

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The question is whether or not it's advertised as a through train...

Based on the NRCoC, you just ask:

Is this "a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing
trains" ?

and NRE seems to answer this in the affirmative.
 

HMS Ark Royal

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So the answer is basically that I can not get a Man Picc - Man Picc ticket - get a Hadfield return instead...?

Thanks to everyone who has answered so far
 

Bletchleyite

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So the answer is basically that I can not get a Man Picc - Man Picc ticket - get a Hadfield return instead...?

Thanks to everyone who has answered so far

A return to the furthest out point on such a service is unlikely to meet with arguments (rather, won't meet with arguments, as it is both valid by the letter of the rules and not taking the mick).

A return to the first stop may be technically valid, but is likely to meet with arguments.

I remember having this issue on the Tokyo system. In the end we barged through the barriers as the fare adjust[1] machine couldn't handle it and there were no staff anywhere to ask what to do! (There were clearly no staff anywhere, as alarms sounded when we did, but nobody responded to them)

[1] Tokyo's system is fully barriered, and it's a perfectly valid thing to do to buy the cheapest single to enter, then use a "fare adjust" machine before exit in order to pay the excess fare - indeed, it's probably recommended that tourists do this as it's easiest to understand.
 
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miami

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How about a break of journey at glossop on the "to Ashbury via Glossop" leg?
 

yorkie

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Based on the NRCoC, you just ask:

Is this "a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing
trains" ?

and NRE seems to answer this in the affirmative.
Agreed.
Perhaps a return from Manchester to Ashburys will suffice?

Outward 06.46-06.51
Return 06.51-07.59
That said, I'd prefera return to Gorton myself, as I feel it's easier to argue, if challenged, "My journey is from Manchester to Gorton".

I would not undertake such a journey without a printed booking confirmation clearly showing validity, as evidence of a contract.
 

Starmill

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Can you find a fare a ticket with origin Manchester Piccadilly and destination Manchester Piccadilly? I can't.

No! And I don't know why such a thing would exist either...

If it did, I can't imagine it permitting travel, by definition. Maybe it'd be a Platform Ticket?
 
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