A strange delay at York today

[yorkie]

2017 York-Hull was ready to depart from platform 6, but instead of the signal clearing, a 3-car 158 approached and was put ahead of the Hull service. Driver & guard rather confused by this and had to contact the signaller. The Hull service could not depart until the other train was shunted away, eventually departing 15 late.

Ooops!

 

[SWT Driver]

Sounds like what is known as a "Deviation from the criteria based standards of competence" by the signaller to me.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I'm guessing that the approaching 3-car 158 which ended up blocking the 20:17, was the 1B39 17:18 Blackpool North to York? [due to arrive York 20:21] The Blackpool to York's are usually formed of 3-car 158's, although it's by no means unknown for 2-car 158s or other DMUs like 156s to run, when 3-car 158's aren't available.

 

[142094]

Was the one in front ECS or was it actually going somewhere? Sometimes a Selby bound 158 goes into platform 5 and reverses, but maybe this time 2 and 5 were already in use so it had to go in front of the Hull train?

 

[StewieG]

Was the one in front ECS or was it actually going somewhere? Sometimes a Selby bound 158 goes into platform 5 and reverses, but maybe this time 2 and 5 were already in use so it had to go in front of the Hull train?

If that was the case, surely it could have been held at red somewhere before York?

 

[Old Timer]

Logic maybe but such things do not exist in the surreal world of ARS

 

[yorkie]

Does ARS path trains into bay platforms? I didn't think it did, but I could be wrong...

 

[Metroland]

It does, it can also drop train on top of others in permissive platforms, unless its either turned off or not programmed to do so (Some locations have this feature deliberately disabled).

In the end though, its up to the signaller to 'collar up' to stop this sort of this happening - assuming that was the case. ARS can be a pest though.

 

[Spartacus]

It does, it can also drop train on top of others in permissive platforms, unless its either turned off or not programmed to do so (Some locations have this feature deliberately disabled).

In the end though, its up to the signaller to 'collar up' to stop this sort of this happening - assuming that was the case. ARS can be a pest though.

ARS is well named, as it is a pain in the ARS! While most signalling centres have a sensible approach to it through experience I've learnt that some others that I won't name are happy to sit back and watch ARS cause problems.

 

[NorthernDriver]

The Signaller cocked up! Its as simple as that! Its always happening and nowt special.

 

[142094]

We sat in platform one morning for 15 minutes on the 08.27 York to Leeds, then the guard gave an announcement that the signaller hadn't been told we were waiting to go. I always thought guards and platform dispatchers pressed the button at the end of the platform to let the signaller know the train is ready and for a clear signal to be shown?

 

[O L Leigh]

Yes, I've found myself boxed-in more than once by a signaller routing a train on top of mine in error. I've also been the driver of that train on ocassion too. It's not unusual or even particularly rare.

As for waiting for the signal, yes someone should have indicated to the box that the train was ready to start. However, clearly the guard of your train felt it was someone else's job (e.g. platform staff) and didn't mind letting you know it.

O L Leigh

 

[boing_uk]

The Blackpool to York's are usually formed of 3-car 158's, although it's by no means unknown for 2-car 158s or other DMUs like 156s to run, when 3-car 158's aren't available.

O/T not necessarily - the morning services from BPN up to the 09:29 are two car. The 10:29 ex BPN is three car and there is a mix of two and three car during the day.

Annoyingly though, the busiest service from Blackburn back west is a two car at 17:15 ex-Blackburn, with the following services west generally three car. I suppose it works well for the service in West Yorkshire, but it gets somewhat congested in East Lancs.

 

[Metroland]

What normally happens is the train formation/back working is altered - which does tend to change from day-to-day. The formation is something you should know as well as which set makes which service and what must be coupled to what. Normally this comes out on notices or a list of some kind if changed from the normal WTT. In some locations it changes every day. Another reason is a TOC might do a set swap at the last minute, or sometimes don't advise of set swaps. In IECC areas, a dreaded ARS error, sometimes caused by bad programming in the timetable processor (these are altered frequently manually) or sometimes it just does odd things which you must learn to second guess and collar up accordingly. Very occasionally its a wrong route. It's not ever so common per person. but there's not many signallers that haven't boxed at least one train in or set one wrong route over a period of years.

 

[ungreat]

Yet if the driver had cocked up,he'd have been sacked!

 

[O L Leigh]

We're lucky in that we can usually effect a unit swap to get ourselves out of the problem and then swap back later, but it does make us look like a bunch of total amateurs at times.

**EDIT**

To be fair to our train-steering colleagues, a wrong-routeing resulting in a train being boxed-in at a terminus station isn't a biggy. From the driver's perspective it makes little difference whether they end up on P5 or P7, so we never challenge it if we're not routed into our booked platforms.

O L Leigh

 

[Metroland]

Ungreat: drivers jobs are easy. One train, one signal to look for, don't even have to steer, don't even have to worry about the timetable too much if you have a line of greens, it's pretty much all laid on! (I jest of course!). Signallers have to deal with 10-20 or more trains at once and 200-300 pesky phone calls per shift and reams of paper, enough notices and paperwork to demolish a rain forest!

Actually a wrong route can get you a nasty letter and an entry in your record.

 

[O L Leigh]

Ungreat: drivers jobs are easy. One train, one signal to look for, don't even have to steer, don't even have to worry about the timetable too much if you have a line of greens, it's pretty much all laid on! (I jest of course!).

Oh, my aching sides. :roll:

At least you haven't got your balls in a vice up there in your nice, warm, carpeted offices. You can just sit back, relax and let the computer do it all while you idly watch from over the top of whatever publication (railway or otherwise) you happen to be reading that day. You can pad around in your slippers and every now and then send us a "WAIT" message whenever we "SG" you, assuming you can be bothered to lean forward far enough to actually reach the button, and then go back to letting the computer deal with it.

Signallers have to deal with 10-20 or more trains at once and 200-300 pesky phone calls per shift and reams of paper, enough notices and paperwork to demolish a rain forest!

Don't worry. We get a lot of the same notices as you.

Actually a wrong route can get you a nasty letter and an entry in your record.

Is that all? No tea and biscuits with the gaffer? No action plan?

O L Leigh

 

[Metroland]

LOL sit back and relax I wish! 200-300 phone calls is no joke, I actually counted them one shift, and that wasn't even a top grade place. Plus if ARS was that good you could read 'rail magazine', it's so good at giving magical mystery tours its about as trustworthy as a political manifesto.

Same notices? Yes, but you just have to look up what one train is doing, I had to look up what 500 are doing.

Drivers should of course spend a week in these places, they would get a fair appreciation of real work.

 

[O L Leigh]

As it would if signallers came out for cab-rides. An appreciation of how we have to react to some of the things they do would help them regulate us better and cut down on the delays accruing to either side.

Mind you, we can sometimes tell when the bobby has left ARS to do it's own thing. Depending on how charitable I'm feeling I may announce any delays as a result of this as being the consequence of either a signalling irregularity or the signaller having a dump/smoke/quick glance out of the window at the real world.

O L Leigh

 

[Metroland]

Actually I did take a cab ride for a week (twice). All I got was ear ache over how hard pressed the drivers job was (as a pigeon splattered on the front of the train) in fact it was a continual moan about signallers all the way there and all the way back - usually about how platforms were left empty and they were left outside stations (signalling overlaps obviously not in the drivers training then!).

One bloke even had the cheek to suggest double block should be the normal method of working, and relieve him of the responsibility of looking out for signals. This somehow got to management, who tried to issue an instruction to work double block and create loads of work and move all the responsibility onto us! Before it was kicked into touch!

Midweek, we picked up a [signalling] colleague from a station, and as a driver approached a junction a few miles further on, controlled by this chaps place (not that he let on) and the driver went into a full scale rant on 'Those bas*ards at so and so'. Before the signaller introduced himself. I had a similar experience at a depot at the end of the week, sat talking with a load of blokes, when a driver burst in a went into another full scale rant about 'Those other bas*tards at that other place'. Before the others introduced me.

Life must be easy when there's just signals to look for, if not a little stressful at times

 

[O L Leigh]

Good for you. I've always advocated that we should have the chance to take a peek over the other side of the fence from time to time as well as inviting the neighbours around.

Yes a lot of drivers moans about signallers are unfounded, but then I'm sure the opposite is equally true. However, while I can understand why I get held outside of Liv St from time to time, I can also see the times when I'm delayed without cause because of the actions of the controlling signaller (usually on approach to various CCTV crossings). If the signaller had a better understanding of the routes they control, what us drivers see and how we have to react then perhaps such incidents could be avoided.

For example, there are quite a few CCTV crossings on a certain section of our route that are all controlled by the same workstation. Quite often we are forced to react to a YY aspect on approach by braking because we cannot yet see the next signal. This is all down to how quickly (or otherwise) the crossing and the protecting signal have been cleared. This is such a problem for us having to brake for one crossing, accelerate, brake for the next crossing, accelerate and brake again for the third crossing (usually down to a red) that it has been picked up by our performance manager and raised with Nitwit Rail.

Life would indeed be easy if it was only the signals we needed to look out for. It's all the stations, "tango's", crossings, irregular stopping patterns, idiotic members of the public, passengers, managers, stray livestock, flooding, snow, wet beds, irregular signalling sequences, detached droppers, train despatchers, changing lighting conditions, washed-out signals, low rail adhesion, train faults and failures, abusive people, trespassers, drunks and fallen trees that make things interesting.

O L Leigh

 

[Metroland]

Of course I was being sarcastic (as you know). But yes, the lack of appreciation between the driver's and signallers job was brought up at the Ladbroke Grove inquiry.

Some drivers do think its plain sailing and signallers are out to delay trains. That's not generally my experience, in fact there is a fair bit of rivalry between shifts on delay, which all appears on TOPS. For me, getting delay attributed to me was a matter of shame, even if was just a couple of minutes. Normally this would happen no more than once per month if that, not bad considering the level of traffic. The delay was usually less than 5 minutes as well. Most of the time it taking chances with regulating (keeping the job moving) its not always possible to predict what your colleagues in adjoining boxes will do. You have to take the overall situation into account, and think carefully about what can cause problems. For example, you cannot just run trains towards yards, because sometimes shunters cannot accept them. During disruption, stack trains carefully, else you screw up the backworking.

It's also a common falacy that it just 'pressing buttons'. Most signalling centres are first point of contact as to what is going on in an area, the result of which the phone never stops ringing for inquires and safety related messages, some of these have to be documented. Its not uncommon for 4 or 5 phones ringing at once, and at least 1 or 2 ringing at one workstation most of the day.

So when there is problems: Such as bad weather, delays, floods, livestock etc it all tends to come through you. As well the Pway/S&T wanting to sort out problems, TOC set swaps and changed working (which are enormous during disruption) as well as engineering work. 80% of the incidents on the railway are caused by communication, so its not like a large proportion of these calls are similar to working in a call centre selling insurance. Get the messages wrong and it can cause an accident. If anyone wants to see how easy it is, have a look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Caj90Etnw3k This can be quite a challenge during failures, when you are having to override the signalling system and you have no protection from the interlocking, or during engineering work/SLW.

As for hassle from the public, as you know tresspass is quite common as is level crossing abuse, and this used to put up workloads quite a bit.

Anyway, a good overview of York IECC can be found here

http://www.theraileng.co.uk/pdfs/RAIL article Dec 07.pdf