A TPE Class 802 got up to 145mph - A record?

[Darandio]

It's over an hour long, can you remember when it was mentioned?

Very early on, it's from around 3:00.

 

[43096]

I have heard similar about ICE 3 being allowed 330 to make up time, so I'm sure it is possible is permitted in Germany in certain circumstances at least on high speed lines, though they'd have to have a means of adjusting the can signalling to allow for such otherwise it would trip everytime.

But such is not allowed in the UK, as many drivers have posted in the past while there is some tolerance if it is found that drivers are routinely exceeding the speed limits they will be up for a meeting with "tea and no biscuits" . Some more modern fleets will even give the game up themselves - Class 185s for example will send a text message if the overspeed threshold is reached (103mph)!

I think people are missing the point. This instance was of a train exceeding the permitted line speed by a significant margin. The examples in Germany are of trains normally running below line speed but running up to line speed in the event of late running - that is not the same as what happened in this case.

 

[hexagon789]

I think people are missing the point. This instance was of a train exceeding the permitted line speed by a significant margin. The examples in Germany are of trains normally running below line speed but running up to line speed in the event of late running - that is not the same as what happened in this case.

I know it's not the same, and I did ask how it could happen that even if the speedset failed, the driver allowed speed to climb to at least 20mph over the permitted before noticing but I never got an answer to that.

 

[Wunderkind]

I know it's not the same, and I did ask how it could happen that even if the speedset failed, the driver allowed speed to climb to at least 20mph over the permitted before noticing but I never got an answer to that.

It didn't 'fail', it was disengaged through an unfortunate combination of circumstances, seemingly with a contribution to those circumstances by the driver. As for why the driver didn't notice the excess of speed, who knows?

 

[hexagon789]

It didn't 'fail', it was disengaged through an unfortunate combination of circumstances, seemingly with a contribution to those circumstances by the driver. As for why the driver didn't notice the excess of speed, who knows?

Sorry, someone said it failed in a post above and I erroneously assumed that was the case then

 

[yorkie]

If anyone wishes to post a trip report about a trip they did back in the days before 'black boxes' became a 'thing', feel free to contribute in the Trip Reports section.

 

[D365]

Some more modern fleets will even give the game up themselves - Class 185s for example will send a text message if the overspeed threshold is reached (103mph)!

Is that not a common feature then? Not fitted on any AT300/Class 802 fleets?

 

[hexagon789]

Is that not a common feature then? Not fitted on any AT300/Class 802 fleets?

Overspeed trips or text messaging?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Is that not a common feature then? Not fitted on any AT300/Class 802 fleets?

I was under the impression that all new traction from the oughties had speed limiting devices fitted. This was based on my understanding that class 33s were fitted back in BR days and you rarely heard of a Crompton exceeding 85mph by certainly more than 10mph back in the day. I think HSTs (at least the Western ones) also had speed limiters, although I may be worng.

 

[D365]

Overspeed trips or text messaging?

The SMS alerts.

 

[Clarence Yard]

HST’s were retro fitted with limiters after some fairy hairy speeds were being attained in passenger service. Traditional diesel locos didn’t get fitted and when asking about the maximum speed a Deltic could go, one riding engineer said that “the traction motors start to hum when you get to 120mph!”

In the case of the 800 series units there are a number of ways the ASL can be disabled or not even set to a speed, the result of which will be to allow the train to go past the maximum speed. A good way of accidentally switching off the ASL is to have to log out of the TMS and log back in on the move, which can be done accidentally by pressing the wrong button on the TMS.

In the case quoted above, I have been informed that it was the driver himself that reported the incident.

 

[Father Jack]

This was based on my understanding that class 33s were fitted back in BR days

I can confirm that the 33s were fitted as mentioned, when you reached 85mph the amps would drop right off with the power handle left in position, then when the speed dropped to below 80mph, IIRC, the amps would increase again. This would have been in the early eighties.

 

[CAF397]

Class 350s had a form of speed limiter fitted. It wouldn't let the speed increase (under traction) past 100mph, and then later 110mph. But you could leave the power controller open and the unit would keep the maximum speed (100 or 110mph). You'd obviously have to watch it on a falling gradient as it wouldn't stop the speed increasing past that.

 

[Mintona]

I would have thought that by 130 it would have felt a little too fast, surprised it got all the way to 145.

 

[hexagon789]

Class 350s had a form of speed limiter fitted. It wouldn't let the speed increase (under traction) past 100mph, and then later 110mph. But you could leave the power controller open and the unit would keep the maximum speed (100 or 110mph). You'd obviously have to watch it on a falling gradient as it wouldn't stop the speed increasing past that.

I believe 444/450s to be the same which would make sense of course - I've seen mention of some form of speed limiter on 444s but not any detail as to exactly how it works in practice.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2020 ==

I would have thought that by 130 it would have felt a little too fast, surprised it got all the way to 145.

My feeling also, but presumably there is a good reason why that was not the case and speed allowed to climb to 20mph over linespeed

 

[bluenoxid]

Realisation time plus rectification. How good are the 802 acceleration at these speeds?

 

[ainsworth74]

I would have thought that by 130 it would have felt a little too fast, surprised it got all the way to 145.

Not a train driver let alone one that drives high speed services but surely 5mph over the speed you're expecting wouldn't be that noticeably faster? I agree that getting all the way to 145 is impressive but 130?

Realisation time plus rectification. How good are the 802 acceleration at these speeds?

As a passenger I've always felt like on on electric it feels like they're just getting going when they hit 125 as in it feels like there's still plenty left in the tank to go faster.

 

[43096]

It didn't 'fail', it was disengaged through an unfortunate combination of circumstances, seemingly with a contribution to those circumstances by the driver. As for why the driver didn't notice the excess of speed, who knows?

That sounds remarkably like software developers telling you "It isn't a bug, it's an undocumented feature".

In reality - it failed. Unfortunate combination of circumstances or not, it allowed the train to do 20mph over linespeed - so it's failed to do what it is supposed to do.

 

[irish_rail]

I would have thought that by 130 it would have felt a little too fast, surprised it got all the way to 145.

But if driver is TPE and only used to 100moh class 185s, it may be very very early in his 125mph driving career and his experience of what 125mph "should" feel like may be limited.
Especially on straight track.

And there is one other issue with 80x units that I personally consider dangerous, and that is the limited view out of the front, in that the desk is so high that the driver only just peers over the top of it (not helped by the pointless strip of carpet). This helps create a false feeling of lack of speed . I have had this myself , approaching stations too fast because it felt like we were going so slow, and this is made even worse by the fact it is very hard to get the drivers seat to stay in the highest possible position.

 

[GoneSouth]

This all sounds a bit alarming to me. Was there an investigation and were the crew found to be at fault in any way? How dangerous is travelling at that speed and what’s the safely margin built in above line speed

As a passenger I’d be interested to know what 145 feels like on the hitachi trains. I’ve only used them on the great western mainline and I’ll be kind and say they’re “firm” to ride on at any speed! If I wasn’t feeling quite so kind I’d be honest and say they are bloody uncomfortable!

 

[Clarence Yard]

There was an investigation but the result of that isn’t going to be published here. All operators of 80x stock are aware of what happened.

 

[ainsworth74]

This all sounds a bit alarming to me. Was there an investigation and were the crew found to be at fault in any way? How dangerous is travelling at that speed and what’s the safely margin built in above line speed

If it happened where I'm fairly sure it happened, somewhere between York and Northallerton, the line is as straight as a ruler and flat as a pancake so the danger would have been basically nil as the driver would have no doubt spotted it once they began to bring their speed down for the slightly twisty tracker north of Northallerton (and actually I bet they had a call booked at Northallerton so that would have slowed them down anyway).

 

[Darandio]

If it happened where I'm fairly sure it happened, somewhere between York and Northallerton, the line is as straight as a ruler and flat as a pancake so the danger would have been basically nil as the driver would have no doubt spotted it once they began to bring their speed down for the slightly twisty tracker north of Northallerton (and actually I bet they had a call booked at Northallerton so that would have slowed them down anyway).

In the video Dennis does actually claim it happened between Northallerton and Thirsk.

 

[ainsworth74]

In the video Dennis does actually claim it happened between Northallerton and Thirsk.

Perfect about as flat and straight as you could ask for really! Obviously an issue that needs to be looked at and action taken to avoid it happening again but it pretty much couldn't have happened in a safer location really!

 

[Watershed]

Perfect about as flat and straight as you could ask for really! Obviously an issue that needs to be looked at and action taken to avoid it happening again but it pretty much couldn't have happened in a safer location really!

The fact that a track-geometry induced derailment was unlikely doesn't mean it was in any way safe. The railway isn't built or maintained for use at 145mph and the additional stresses of operating at that speed are significantly more than the 20mph excess over the PSR might have you believe. Would have been rather nasty for the knitting to suddenly come tumbling down all over the train, for example, or for the train to derail through a set of points that disintegrated.

 

[ainsworth74]

The fact that a track-geometry induced derailment was unlikely doesn't mean it was in any way safe. The railway isn't built or maintained for use at 145mph and the additional stresses of operating at that speed are significantly more than the 20mph excess over the PSR might have you believe. Would have been rather nasty for the knitting to suddenly come tumbling down all over the train, for example, or for the train to derail through a set of points that disintegrated.

Sure, it 100% shouldn't have happened and I hope that steps will be taken to make sure that it cannot happen again because it clearly isn't safe. But equally, personally, I'm not going to be losing sleep over it happening in that location. I can think of other locations where it would be far more alarming for something like that to happen.

 

[Mintona]

Not a train driver let alone one that drives high speed services but surely 5mph over the speed you're expecting wouldn't be that noticeably faster? I agree that getting all the way to 145 is impressive but 130?

I guess as @irish_rail says the driver may well be used to running at 100 so anything faster feels new. As somebody who spends most of their life at 125 you get a feel for how quickly the ole masts are going past, and can tell the difference between 120 and 125. I’ve never reached 130 so can’t say for sure but I reckon I would know by then something wasn’t right.

 

[Ianno87]

I guess as @irish_rail says the driver may well be used to running at 100 so anything faster feels new. As somebody who spends most of their life at 125 you get a feel for how quickly the ole masts are going past, and can tell the difference between 120 and 125. I’ve never reached 130 so can’t say for sure but I reckon I would know by then something wasn’t right.

Also, that stretch on line is surrounded by wide, flat fields - few physical features to give the senstation of speed.

 

[dk1]

As stated, it was accidental. Speeding to make up time is not allowed.

They spoil everything nowadays.

 

[Randomer]

In regards to the driver not noticing the higher speed. I can also see the driver not being as conscious of the speed if they were trying to sort out an issue that had caused the speed limiter to not stay on in the first place whilst unaware that it wasn't functional. As in they knew they could attend to a problem with the TMS (being more "head in" rather than "head out" of the cab to use an aviation term) whilst knowing they had set a speed, in an area between signals and with no line speed changes they had to pay attention to but then got caught out when the ASL wasn't actually working.

I do wonder if a system like ASL is being used as a safety feature rather than a convenience should it be able to be disabled whilst the train is in motion at all? Not that it must be used but that a maximum must always be set, but that it also needs a second top limit probably the highest speed limit for the train?