A train to LRDDEAC / London Road Depot is shown on the timetable?!

[miklcct]

A train operating company app shows a train from Harrow & Wealdstone departing at 22:31 has the destination listed as LRDDEAC, and the calling list shows the final station as Queens Park.

brtimes.com shows the same train ends at London Road Depot arriving at 00:15, 30 minutes from the penultimate stop Queens Park, which is a metro train operated by London Underground.

I have never seen a depot run listed in the public timetable elsewhere. Where does exactly this train operate?

 

[Roger1973]

This sounds like the data is slightly scrambled.

London Underground's working timetables are in the public domain (here) and the Bakerloo Line timetable shows (on Monday to Friday) a 2323 Harrow and Wealdstone to Waterloo train which terminates at Waterloo (as far as the public are concerned) then runs empty to London Road depot arriving 0015 (see page numbered 31 which is page 32 of the PDF)

This map shows the track to London Road depot coming off the main running lines between Waterloo and Lambeth North stations.

I suspect the app can't quite cope with it being on Network Rail tracks from H + W to Queens Park then 'disappearing' on to London Underground territory.

 

[Deepgreen]

This sounds like the data is slightly scrambled.

London Underground's working timetables are in the public domain (here) and the Bakerloo Line timetable shows (on Monday to Friday) a 2323 Harrow and Wealdstone to Waterloo train which terminates at Waterloo (as far as the public are concerned) then runs empty to London Road depot arriving 0015 (see page numbered 31 which is page 32 of the PDF)

This map shows the track to London Road depot coming off the main running lines between Waterloo and Lambeth North stations.

I suspect the app can't quite cope with it being on Network Rail tracks from H + W to Queens Park then 'disappearing' on to London Underground territory.

All Bakerloo line trains from north of Queen's Park go from NR to LU track - why would this particular one be different? It's odd, and I wonder if its final public destination of Waterloo is causing confusion (although it shouldn't).

 

[Roger1973]

I've just tried 'real time trains' for Monday late evening and it's showing most Bakerloo trains as to Elephant + Castle, but not listing intermediate stations after Queens Park.

It's also showing the 2323 ex Harrow + Wealdstone as to London Road depot.

From a quick look at the working timetable, this seems to be the only departure from H+W that does this.

Trying an enquiry for Stonebridge Park, the 2325 and 2354 (which start at Stonebridge Park) also show as to London Road depot.

Looks like the data has been entered from the working not public timetable, and it is seeing both Elephant + Castle LU station and London Road depot as terminating points that are both off the NR network without realising that one's not a public station. Logically, these journeys should show as to Waterloo (LU) Station.

Could this be down to how NR and LU treat empty movements? Underground trains can do a single timetabled journey that turns from empty (or staff only) to public (or vice versa) at some point in that journey (as these ones do at Waterloo), but would NR do that, or would they show a similar working as one journey as far as the point where the public journey terminates and then as a separate 'ecs' journey from there to depot?

 

[Lewlew]

It's a long standing issue with trains terminating at Waterloo. It's been happening for years. The displays at stations Harrow - Queens Park will either display LRDDEAC or show nothing at all and will display a "passing service" message as the train approaches.

What they should do is split the schedule, have a Harrow to Waterloo run and then a Waterloo to LRD ECS movement but that will involve changing the LU schedules/timetables.

There is a Harrow to Paddington run on Sunday evenings which is shown correctly but that train reverses at Paddington so is the end of that run.

Realtime Trains - 2E06 2328 Harrow & Wealdstone to Paddington Bakerloo Lul

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Is this a candidate for the station used only for trains to depot thread?

 

[Lewlew]

Is this a candidate for the station used only for trains to depot thread?

I've already mentioned it in one of the first posts

 

[SargeNpton]

Bakerloo Line trains in the Network Rail data show all timing points on the NR tracks, but only the origin/destination on the Underground section - normally Elephant & Castle.

For these late night services that end up at the depot, the depot is shown in the train schedule, but what has been omitted is to mark that as a non-advertised stop.

As the platforms displays are only programmed to recognise TIPLOCs for passenger locations there is nothing in their database to translate LRDDEAC into and so the TIPLOC is shown instead.

 

[A Challenge]

Wouldn't the sensible thing to translate LRDDEAC for these trains into Waterloo, as that is where trains into the depot would be terminating?

 

[Paul Kelly]

RDG supplies a file in the timetable datafeed that translates TIPLOCs into stations. Any TIPLOCs (e.g. passing points) not listed in that file can be ignored; the system/app should really be doing this. I'd say it's just lazy programming where they haven't considered that the destination shown in the schedule might be somewhere like this that needs to be ignored. As SargeNpton says it should probably be marked as a non-advertised stop but on the other hand it's nothing new; these schedules have existed as such for many years so in my opinion it really just shows up a lack of sufficient testing on the part of the system/app supplier.

Looks like the data has been entered from the working not public timetable

At the data level, there aren't separate timetables - it's all the same thing. Each station or timing point always has working times, but not all of them have public times.

 

[SargeNpton]

RDG supplies a file in the timetable datafeed that translates TIPLOCs into stations. Any TIPLOCs (e.g. passing points) not listed in that file can be ignored; the system/app should really be doing this. I'd say it's just lazy programming where they haven't considered that the destination shown in the schedule might be somewhere like this that needs to be ignored. As SargeNpton says it should probably be marked as a non-advertised stop but on the other hand it's nothing new; these schedules have existed as such for many years so in my opinion it really just shows up a lack of sufficient testing on the part of the system/app supplier.


At the data level, there aren't separate timetables - it's all the same thing. Each station or timing point always has working times, but not all of them have public times.

Platform displays take a direct feed from Network Rail, so not affected by what is in the feed that goes via RDG into retail systems; or by the RDG locations data.. It's up to the CIS supplier to work out what is and isn't a valid passenger location.

 

[DanNCL]

Something similar used to happen at Sunderland for Metro services terminating anywhere other than Newcastle Airport, Park Lane or South Hylton. Eventually all Metro services heading North of Sunderland were shown as running through to Newcastle Airport, regardless where the actual terminating point was, but more recently the system has been updated and now displays trains terminating at South Gosforth and Regent Centre correctly. On the rare occasions when trains from Sunderland run through to Monkseaton or St James the system still can't handle it, and defaults back to advertising them as running to Newcastle Airport.

Another issue with Metro at Sunderland, which I assume will likely be the same with the Bakerloo North of Queens Park, is that most calling points on the infrastructure not owned by Network Rail are neither shown on the screens nor announced.

Wouldn't the sensible thing to translate LRDDEAC for these trains into Waterloo, as that is where trains into the depot would be terminating?

It would be, which is probably why it hasn't been done

 

[Eloise]

Network Rail input the timings for TW Metro South Hylton services but it only contains sporadic timing points once beyond Pelaw.

When Supertram was put in a few years back the question was asked as to whether just the terminal point off NR metals was wanted or whether every stop was wanted. Every stop was chosen so the CIS at Rotherham Central would show correctly. Timing points do not go beyond Cathedral nor to Sheffield Station itself and those would need adding in. Ironically adding the full list of stop has now caused an internal system issue but that’s not for here.