Abbreviations

[tony_mac]

perhaps you can answer! Should she have insisted on him buying an anytime ticket to Leeds, or instead allowed him to buy a ticket just to York instead?

 

[b0b]

also a discounted fare from York to Leeds.

interesting question. From what I can see there is no break of journey restriction on the XC ticket, so the return portion would have been valid on an XC train from York to Leeds from the way I understand the BOJ rule.

It was the guard's choice to withdraw the ticket and issue the XS rather than issue a UFN for Newcastle-York. I don't see why he should be paying for what the guard did when there is question whether the guard did the right thing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What mistake did the East Coast guard make?

No excess should be issued surely? and the ticket should not be withdrawn if he isn't using it and is, instead, buying a new ticket?

Also it sounds like a ticket was withdrawn without a receipt being issued - this is not correct practice.

this ....

 

[tony_mac]

I was working on the assumption that it was a day return, so wasn't actually valid at all anyway!

 

[yorkie]

interesting question. From what I can see there is no break of journey restriction on the XC ticket, so the return portion would have been valid on an XC train from York to Leeds from the way I understand the BOJ rule.

How do you understand it? If the OP did not leave station premises he did not break his journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

An admin fee is attached to all Unpaid Fares Notices. He refused to pay the fare there and then by his own choice. If he had paid up- he would have just been issued a new ticket, (or this guard might have even allowed him to get an excess).

The fact that the guard has to write a report, Revenue Protection spend time investigating the matter and somebody having to write a letter to him, and then deal with his complaint etc, £10 is probably quite generous really.[/quote]
I didn't know that there is a £10 admin fee for Unpaid Fare Notices, but I was more referring to correct procedure in the first place, before it came to that. If he had been asked for the Newcastle-York fare only then maybe he would have paid there and then? The OP could argue that case.

No matter what way you look at it, he was in the wrong. Had an invalid ticket- got a bit cocky, adamant that he was in the right and refused to pay for either an excess/new ticket.

If you're going to say he got cocky, then I'm going to say the guard got cocky by charging an incorrectly higher price!

As for how the guard persued this:

The ticket can be withdrawn. It is her property as an authorised agent of the TOC. However, a copy of an UFN would suffice, there is no specific requirement for a receipt if he has a UFN.

I don't think so, that's hardly a receipt is it? If that is "above board" then the rules need to be changed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It seems like there were mistakes on both sides here, so probably the OP should respond explaining that he feels that in this case he only owes the undiscounted SOS Newcastle-York fare of 26.40 + 10.00 admin fee, and enclose a cheque for 36.40, send it off recorded delivery and see if that settles the issue.

I would say that no admin fee should be payable on the basis that the OP may have been happy to pay the correct £26.40 amount in the first place.

 

[b0b]

How do you understand it? If the OP did not leave station premises he did not break his journey.

As with everything, these rules are complicated.

I was unsure if you hold a ticket that is valid for a break of journey, if you can start the journey at an intermediate station, which would be the case if you take the view that he did not use the original ticket between Newcastle and York....

 

[glynn80]

Well firstly we only have the OPs word that the guard insisted in issuing the Unpaid Fares Notice to Leeds and refused to issue it to York, considering what I have seen from the OP above, I'm not sure this information can be trusted. The truth could easily have been that the OP insisted on travelling to Leeds on that service and was not going to disembark at York.

No excess should be issued surely? and the ticket should not be withdrawn if he isn't using it and is, instead, buying a new ticket?

Also it sounds like a ticket was withdrawn without a receipt being issued - this is not correct practice.

No this is exactly the correct procedure and is outlined within the FRPP as follows:

Retaining rail tickets in conjunction with irregularity reports

Travel tickets

If a ticket is retained for enquiry, in the course of a journey, issue an Excess Fare ticket, without charge, for the complete journey, showing details of the original ticket and endorsed 'Original ticket held for enquiry'. Include the issuing of this ticket in your report.

Please check your facts before making statements as bold as "this is not correct practice".

 

[yorkie]

also a discounted fare from York to Leeds.

I'd say not if he had an earlier train than specified if it was an Advance ticket, and then got on the correct train at York. It's not a break of journey as defined by the NCoC. It may not technically be valid to start short in some small print that quite possibly falls fouls of consumer laws, but there was a case in 2007 where GNER tried to charge people for starting 'short' on Advance tickets, and they got a lot of bad press and "waived" the excess charge. (In other words, damage limitation on bad press and no court case for them to lose again, they got badly burnt with the Retford incident, and rightly so).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Please check your facts before making statements as bold as "this is not correct practice".

I said "it sounds like" a ticket was withdrawn without a receipt being issued. I did not say it was. The OP's version of events may not be entirely accurate I agree but we have to assume it is until we have good reason to believe otherwise.

You know that it is not correct to withdraw a ticket without issuing a receipt.

Also how can it be right that a zero excess is issued with no ticket to back it up? If that is right, which I find hard to believe, I can just get a zero excess for anything I want, and discard the ticket and use just the excess. That can't be right surely?!

Also what about this scenario: if the specified train was cancelled, the customer tried to use it on another operator's service, this was declined, and a new ticket issued. The customer would be entitled to a full refund by sending it to the company whose train he was booked on which was cancelled. Beside him is a person with no ticket. It would be ludicrous if the person with no ticket was charged the same price but the person with the advance ticket also had that confiscated and unable to get it refunded (as per ticket conditions). That, also, cannot be right!

 

[b0b]

Well firstly we only have the OPs word that the guard insisted in issuing the Unpaid Fares Notice to Leeds and refused to issue it to York

I think we do have plenty of evidence that the guard was trying to issue a SOS from Newcastle to Leeds, even though the OP was intending to leave the EC train at York. At no point does he mention that he was offered the SOS to York, nor it seems was he clearly told what he did wrong to the point he came here to figure it out...

dozens of times before as I was a student up in the toon, often getting to newcastle station and getting either a direct train to leeds if available or one to york and then york to leeds (been doing that for four years!!)

On this day the best option was to get the newcastle - york - leeds.

As a result of this she (the ticket conductor) then tried to make me pay another £40 for a new newcastle to leeds ticket.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also how can it be right that a zero excess is issued with no ticket to back it up? If that is right, which I find hard to believe, I can just get a zero excess for anything I want, and discard the ticket and use just the excess. That can't be right surely?!

Apparently that's how it works, since the TPE guard accepted and stamped the ticket on the York-Leeds portion of the trip.

 

[yorkie]

Apparently that's how it works, since the TPE guard accepted and stamped the ticket on the York-Leeds portion of the trip.

That doesn't mean it's right though.

The truth could easily have been that the OP insisted on travelling to Leeds on that service and was not going to disembark at York.

The evidence seems to suggest the OP changed at York.

It would be so much easier if people could post details of
- exactly which tickets they got including the price, origin, destination, ticket type, and if more than one ticket, full details of the combination.
- exactly which train(s) they got (leave out the exact date but 'weekday' or 'weekend' plus the times will do)
- exactly what happened
- exactly what railcards were involved and whether they were present
- any more relevant data

This would make it so much easier and reduce speculation/guesswork.

 

[b0b]

If you accept the XS as the ticket the guard issued as being correct, then he was on the 15:00 Edinburgh-Kings Cross which is scheduled to depart Newcastle at 16:33. This service does not call at Leeds.

The sad thing about all this is that means he just missed the 16:25 XC train, and he might have caught the 18:15 TPE at York, getting to Leeds at 18:38, saving 14 minutes had he gotten the next XC

 

[glynn80]

I said "it sounds like" a ticket was withdrawn without a receipt being issued. I did not say it was. The OP's version of events may not be entirely accurate I agree but we have to assume it is until we have good reason to believe otherwise.

Firstly your exact words were "Also it sounds like a ticket was withdrawn without a receipt being issued - this is not correct practice.". The dash obviously signifies you are then commenting on the previous statement, you are stating that the fact the ticket was issued without a receipt was incorrect practice. In the previous sentence you stated "No excess should be issued surely? and the ticket should not be withdrawn if he isn't using it and is, instead, buying a new ticket?" It is quite clear you are wrong here, the correct procedure was followed in that the zero excess acts as the receipt, just because you weren't aware of this procedure does not make it incorrect.

You know that it is not correct to withdraw a ticket without issuing a receipt.

A receipt was issued, the zero excess.

Also how can it be right that a zero excess is issued with no ticket to back it up? If that is right, which I find hard to believe, I can just get a zero excess for anything I want, and discard the ticket and use just the excess. That can't be right surely?!

Why do you find it hard to believe, because you've never heard of this procedure before? I have quoted from the FRPP, if that is not proof enough, I don't know what more you want.

Also what about this scenario: if the specified train was cancelled, the customer tried to use it on another operator's service, this was declined, and a new ticket issued. The customer would be entitled to a full refund by sending it to the company whose train he was booked on which was cancelled. Beside him is a person with no ticket. It would be ludicrous if the person with no ticket was charged the same price but the person with the advance ticket also had that confiscated and unable to get it refunded (as per ticket conditions). That, also, cannot be right!

This has no relevance to the situation we are dealing with.

I think we do have plenty of evidence that the guard was trying to issue a SOS from Newcastle to Leeds, even though the OP was intending to leave the EC train at York. At no point does he mention that he was offered the SOS to York, nor it seems was he clearly told what he did wrong to the point he came here to figure it out...

What evidence? I have seen nothing other than the postings of the OP and considering the inconsistencies in the story being told by the OP, it is hardly reliable evidence.

 

[b0b]

nothing other than the postings of the OP and considering the inconsistencies in the story being told by the OP, it is hardly reliable evidence.

Ok, how about the XS ticket that was issued on a Sunday at 16:45, the timetable shows a EC train is scheduled to depart at 16:33. That service does not call at Leeds.

 

[yorkie]

An excess isn't a receipt by any sane definition. If the railways consider themselves 'correct' in that procedure, then it's yet more evidence of incompetence, insanity and stupidity on the railways part.

A receipt should document what was held, this does nothing of the sort.

This has no relevance to the situation we are dealing with.

Yes it does. It may not have been the case this time, but another time it could be. How does it make sense to penalise someone for having such a ticket compared to someone who has no ticket?

And the way the OP posted it sounds like he changed at York
1) He suggests he used East Coast from NCL to YRK. (and you accepted this in a post earlier). These trains do not go via LDS.
2) "On this day the best option was to get the newcastle - york - leeds." While I agree it's not worded brilliantly, it sounds like he is saying he got Newcastle - York, and York - Leeds trains.
3) The stamp on the ticket suggests it was a train that does not go via Leeds.

I don't think the OP has said anything that makes him sound 'unreliable', I just think he doesn't really understand the issues, isn't using terminology that makes it easy for us to understand and isn't explaining fully. This is no criticism of the OP; but is probably because he is a typical customer who is not an expert in the complexities of railway ticketing. Some TOCs seem to delight in confusing customers. Many of their terms and rules should, in my opinion, be deemed too complicated for the average punter to comprehend. Many of the terms should be declared unfair, null and void. Sadly until people take direct action and start protesting, and/or start taking the TOCs to court, nothing will change.

 

[glynn80]

An excess isn't a receipt by any sane definition. If the railways consider themselves 'correct' in that procedure, then it's yet more evidence of incompetence, insanity and stupidity on the railways part.

If you can't be bothered to read the official procedure outlined within the FRPP then I can't help you. The railways are not one big conspiracy that you need to fight, just accept that this is the official procedure listed within the FRPP.

A receipt should document what was held, this does nothing of the sort.

The original ticket no. is displayed on the excess so if the customer needs to dispute exactly what ticket was withdrawn, this can be recalled.

Yes it does. It may not have been the case this time, but another time it could be. How does it make sense to penalise someone for having such a ticket compared to someone who has no ticket?

Well considering we're discussing the OPs situation within this topic, perhaps it would be better if you started a new topic to discuss the entirely separate scenario you have devised.

Ok, how about the XS ticket that was issued on a Sunday at 16:45, the timetable shows a EC train is scheduled to depart at 16:33. That service does not call at Leeds.

You stated "I think we do have plenty of evidence that the guard was trying to issue a SOS from Newcastle to Leeds" and I asked you what evidence you had that corroborated this statement. I have seen nothing in this topic that remotely shows that the guard attempted to issue an SOS at all.

 

[tony_mac]

I have seen nothing in this topic that remotely shows that the guard attempted to issue an SOS at all.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that - do you mean that you don't believe what he said?

tried to make me pay another £40 for a new newcastle to leeds ticket

An SDS is £40.50

I should only be paying for a new ticket from newcastle to york but she refused to let me and wrote out the whole thing.

 

[freelance84]

...and considering the inconsistencies in the story being told by the OP

Please, I have never offered any inconsistencies in my storey:

1. The start of this thread begun with me under the impression the x/c ticket was the original.

2. At some point somebody highlighted the x/c ticket was one the conductor must have printed out.

3. I then phoned up www.thetrainline.com again and gained some new info: that the original ticket was indeed for cross country use only (i think that the x/c on top of the ticket the conductor printed, coupled with the fact i was under the impression the x/c was the original, made me think that the conductor had made a mistake)

4. I then posted my new results on this thread for all to see.

CASE CLOSED.




With regards to the comment about how i reacted to the conductor on the day (hopefully there will be somewhere some cctv footage):

1. I was polite and calm (I have worked in customer realtions and dealt with many a type of personality in my life)

2. I simply said to the conductor at the time I was not aware that a ticket could be train type specific. She then very coldly replied: "I will have to issue you a new ticket, the cost is £40"

3. At this point I simply said (not shouting nor being rude [partly as the carrage was full, and it is common knowledge that raised voices and rudeness never wins anything]) "That doesn't seem fair, I only paid about £30 pounds for the whole journey" "I'm not prepared to pay that amount"

4. At this point she made a seen out of me and insisted I packed up all my stuff (I was watching a dvd on my my laptop with my headphones and poweradaptor plugged in) and walk all the way down to the other end of the train.

5. When I finally got there she had written out a fine notice thing for Newcastle to Leeds, I said "I can't sign that as I am getting off this train here in york and getting a different train"

6. She pretty much ignored me then gave me a copy of an unsigned notice, but as we were entering York I had to get off anyway.



The original ticket:
As I have already said quite a few times now, I phone up thetrainline.com again and they told me something new, that the ticket from the reciept number starting with 7B... was indeed only valid on crosscountry trains.
I do not have the ticket as the conductor must have given me this mystery "x/c" ticket instead which has be a big catalyst in this whole flipping affair!


Everything I know about the issue is written here in this forum.

The cost of all of this is now around £90.

 

[glynn80]

There have been many inconsistencies within the information you have told however every time you are challenged you state you received this information from theTrainline and in fact you now have new information from them. Of course no one can really dispute this 100% but in my opinion it doesn't add up. I'm sorry if I am incorrect about this but that's just the vibe I have gotten from what you have posted.

Regardless of the above, it doesn't really alter to problem you came to us with which was that you had an invalid ticket that you attempted to use. The guard pulled you up on this and issued you a UPFN which you are now liable for, unfortunately small mistakes can be costly but it just has to be dealt with and put behind you.

 

[Chris-P]

There have been many inconsistencies within the information you have told however every time you are challenged you state you received this information from theTrainline and in fact you now have new information from them. Of course no one can really dispute this 100% but in my opinion it doesn't add up. I'm sorry if I am incorrect about this but that's just the vibe I have gotten from what you have posted.

Regardless of the above, it doesn't really alter to problem you came to us with which was that you had an invalid ticket that you attempted to use. The guard pulled you up on this and issued you a UPFN which you are now liable for, unfortunately small mistakes can be costly but it just has to be dealt with and put behind you.

But the UPFN is wrong, as it should only be to York not Leeds, surely? (all notices I see say "...to the next station, if you wish to continue on THIS train then you will have to pay for a full price ticket to your stop" or such)

 

[royaloak]

After you spotted that the ticket was not the original, I phoned up thetrainline.com again. I spoke to a different person this time who said that ticket was only valid on a transpennine train (but an open return).
.

when I phoned up thetrainline.com again they then told me the return ticket was only valid on the crosscountry trains. .

How is this for inconsistancy, from 2 of your earlier posts!

 

[freelance84]

Yes, there lies an inconsistency. If you look further back I am sure I was calling thetrainline.com theticketline.com too. I am a freelance designer, working at my own office:

Trying to complete my own work and trying to fit in responses on this forum has inevitably led to the odd name inconsistency or spelling mistake, however none of these have taken away from the main trunk of the storey, and the storey of events (now including the content and helpful research from this thread) has simply evolved.

This is not programming, this is a thread on a forum, this is a conversation. Please apply all steps of the conversation.

This, I feel, is the point in forums where the usefulness dissipates into a few people pointing out nuances and insignificant inconsistencies.

If you really want to take the time, then please do:
Sift through this entire thread pull up all the inconsistencies and mark them against the main gist of this storey. I ask you, what will you gain?

I begun this thread with a conundrum, and ended with a clear result thanks to the assistance of the contributors. I am a big enough person to stand up (as i have done a few times before on this now) and say the fault lies in my court, and i must pay the fine.

 

[tony_mac]

I think that it was quite confused for a while - starting off by askngi questions about abbreviations didn't help, but it does seem quite clear now. Good on you for taking responsibility, many people don't.

However, I hope that it isn't too late to stop any further action by EastCoast, and you should get on to deal with that asap. If they do decide to prosecute, you face the risk of ending up with a criminal record and everything that entails. There have been succesful prosecutions for 40p fare differences, so don't think it's not important enough for them.

 

[royaloak]

I have only got onto this thread today so have been through it from post no1, this was just something that jumped out at me, I am sure there are probably other little ones but am not really interested in them like that.

There are a lot of management coming onto forums now trying to catch people out with queries about ticketing and train questions so all have to be careful!

It is good that you are paying the fine, although it is not nice for you. As you say above "who reads all the terms and conditions" which unfortunately is not a defence.
Please dont let this one incident put you off train travel, with a little bit of care it is a very pleasant and relaxing way to travel, The cheaper tickets do have a lot of restrictions which is what catches people out, and agreeing with Yorkie, the ticketing system is a bloody minefield and dont even get me started on the routing guide, it just gives me a head ache.

As Toni has written above pay up, draw a line under this unhappy incident, learn a bit about rail ticket restrictions and enjoy life.
Good luck in the future.

 

[glynn80]

But the UPFN is wrong, as it should only be to York not Leeds, surely? (all notices I see say "...to the next station, if you wish to continue on THIS train then you will have to pay for a full price ticket to your stop" or such)

No the UPFN can be to the next station or for the entire journey. You may be getting confused with the Penalty Fare rule which states:

The Penalty Fare Notice is issued, at the discretion of the Authorised Collector, to the next station stop...

...Customers have the choice of either purchasing a Single ticket for the remainder of the journey being made, or leaving the train at the next station in order to purchase another ticket.

This rule is not applicable to UPFNs.

 

[Chris-P]

No the UPFN can be to the next station or for the entire journey.

So it's actually more expensive to have a ticket than not have a ticket then?

 

[glynn80]

So it's actually more expensive to have a ticket than not have a ticket then?

Can you explain your rationale behind this statement?

How is it more expensive to have a ticket than not have a ticket?

 

[Chris-P]

Can you explain your rationale behind this statement?

How is it more expensive to have a ticket than not have a ticket?

1) I have no ticket, I can buy single to the next station, get off and buy a discounted ticket from the ticket office.

2) I have an invalid ticket, I have to buy a full price ticket for the entire journey, plus be out of pocket for the cost of the original, invalid ticket.

 

[glynn80]

1) I have no ticket, I can buy single to the next station, get off and buy a discounted ticket from the ticket office.

2) I have an invalid ticket, I have to buy a full price ticket for the entire journey, plus be out of pocket for the cost of the original, invalid ticket.

Did you not read what I wrote. I will quote it again for you here "No the UPFN can be to the next station or for the entire journey." (Emphasis added personally).

So if you have no ticket or an invalid ticket you can always buy it to the next station.

 

[Chris-P]

Did you not read what I wrote. I will quote it again for you here "No the UPFN can be to the next station or for the entire journey." (Emphasis added personally).

So if you have no ticket or an invalid ticket you can always buy it to the next station.

Sorry... I got my stations muddled up the first time round, don't know that route very well

 

[b0b]

So it's actually more expensive to have a ticket than not have a ticket then?

It's more expensive if you get on the train with the wrong paint job than if you had no ticket at all.

 

[Chris-P]

It's more expensive if you get on the train with the wrong paint job than if you had no ticket at all.

Nope, I made a mistake :P