Abellio Greater Anglia Class 755s (Regional Trains)

[JonathanH]

Typical government procurement though, spend millions later to save 2 million now.

It wasn't (directly) a failure of government procurement. The fleet was specified on the basis of the franchise holder speeding up the service which required fewer units.

In the same way, the surplus of 755s is because the planned service improvements haven't happened.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

It wasn't (directly) a failure of government procurement. The fleet was specified on the basis of the franchise holder speeding up the service which required fewer units.

In the same way, the surplus of 755s is because the planned service improvements haven't happened.

Yes that is true that the plan from the franchise was over probably optimistic and yes it wasn't directly government procurement although it was at the time the DFT was getting overly involved with the TOCs.

Also on the service improvements, I'm actually optimistic that they may happen in a few years time or something similar once cycle turns once again and costs become secondary to environmental factors and the focus of government becomes getting people on trains. Always goes in cycles - feast or famine

 

[Railperf]

Just wondering whether the 755s would be better diagrammed on the services that end up sat at Orient Way all day between the peaks?

 

[Class15]

Just wondering whether the 755s would be better diagrammed on the services that end up sat at Orient Way all day between the peaks?

Too sensible. Not gonna happen.

 

[py_megapixel]

I’m not a user of first class, but some people are, and paying the fee for an Intercity train with a Cafe bar and first class should not present a regional standard-class only unit.

The only people who are paying a fee for a train with first class are first class ticket holders, and they are entitled to claim a refund of the extra they paid if it's not provided.

Plenty of other intercity trains don't have a cafe bar or similar; some don't even have catering at all.

I don’t care whether they were planned to or not. The fact that unsuitable trains are being used on Intercity services is diabolical, whether it’s supposed to happen or not. The fact is they did not order enough 745s. Let’s get that straight.

You may be correct that they didn't order enough 745s, but that doesn't make the 755s unsuitable, considering the standard class accommodation (which is where the vast majority of passengers spend almost all of their journey) is identical.

 

[dk1]

Just wondering whether the 755s would be better diagrammed on the services that end up sat at Orient Way all day between the peaks?

There are none on the GEML now from Norwich.

 

[Railperf]

There are none on the GEML now from Norwich.

Which services are they booked for? M to F, S, SU. Surely all the coupling / uncoupling needs to be planned?

 

[dk1]

Which services are they booked for? M to F, S, SU. Surely all the coupling / uncoupling needs to be planned?

They do not get uncoupled once in service. They are prepped as one train then remain together on a 745 diagram. Both the 06:28 and 07:26 are formed thus returning at 09:00 and 10:00 respectively and stay on those circuts all day.

Saturdays are similar with no Sundays yet.

 

[47421]

Which services are they booked for? M to F, S, SU. Surely all the coupling / uncoupling needs to be planned?

I think dk1 is saying the Norwich Liv St service no longer includes the peak extra that used to sit in Orient Way all day (or go to Bounds Green for servicing as happened for a while)

The basis problem with the 745 arises because the promised timetable re-cast has not been delivered. The order of 10 first class units was on the basis of the below, with Norwich to Liv St in a standard time of max 1hr45mins, so the units would cycle every 4 hours, requiring 8 diagrams. Now the peak Stansted is back up to 4tph (and likely to be increased to all day before too long as loadings are good) there is much less spare capacity in the Stansted 745 fleet. So only way to resource the Norwich is to use 755s. Might as well use them, plenty spare, as the 755 order was to cover extension of some East Suffolk services to Liv St, doubling of Ipswich to Peterborough to hourly, uplift in Yarmouth service, and extension of Norwich to Camb to Stansted all day. None of this has been delivered and not likely to be (other than some Norwich Camb extensions to Stansted), so 755s spare for the forseeable future.

 

[Haywain]

Light refreshments are offered with a trolley on 745/1 Intercity services booked to have catering & in one of the 755s when in multiple.

That's nice - if you're sat at the wrong end of the train there's a chance you'll get a chance to have a coffee before the train reaches Stratford.

Unless the DfT commit to converting 720s for Stansted Express operation & pay to convert some 745/1s with first class, I see no other option.

What would be an improvement would be ensuring there is first class on half the services - say all the xx30 departures from Liverpool Street and xx00 departures from Norwich - with the others as standard class only. At least that way you give the customers what they expect and pay for.

 

[dk1]

That's nice - if you're sat at the wrong end of the train there's a chance you'll get a chance to have a coffee before the train reaches Stratford.

What would be an improvement would be ensuring there is first class on half the services - say all the xx30 departures from Liverpool Street and xx00 departures from Norwich - with the others as standard class only. At least that way you give the customers what they expect and pay for.

Unfortunately that's not flexible enough and Stansted Express swaps with Norwich at Liverpool St during the day. I think the only option is as is happening now. Other options have trialled and failed.

Control do their best to adhere to which are and are not booked to have 1st class in timetables but with the only depot being in Norwich, short notice alterations need to take place for planned and unplanned maintenance purposes.

 

[RailWonderer]

Typical government procurement though, spend millions later to save 2 million now.

GA ordered directly from Stadler, the DfT had nothing to do with it, other than a directive to modernise and upgrade services.

 

[Purple Train]

720s shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near Norwich. They’re garbage and totally unfit for that route.

Had a run with one to Stansted last weekend:
- appalling ride quality
- seat layout is really poor
- seats far too hard; feel like they have no padding
- poor build quality, lots of rattles. But you’d expect that from Derby…

- Granted, I'm used to 345s and 80xs, but I find the ride quality perfectly decent
- I'm with you there, the bays are squashed together so much that nearly every solo traveller in one sticks their feet on the seats opposite
- Again, I'm used to 345s and 80xs, but I think the seats are quite soft
- Haven't noticed anything particularly poor regarding build quality - what do you mean by "rattles"?

I think dk1 is saying the Norwich Liv St service no longer includes the peak extra that used to sit in Orient Way all day (or go to Bounds Green for servicing as happened for a while)

The basis problem with the 745 arises because the promised timetable re-cast has not been delivered. The order of 10 first class units was on the basis of the below, with Norwich to Liv St in a standard time of max 1hr45mins, so the units would cycle every 4 hours, requiring 8 diagrams. Now the peak Stansted is back up to 4tph (and likely to be increased to all day before too long as loadings are good) there is much less spare capacity in the Stansted 745 fleet. So only way to resource the Norwich is to use 755s. Might as well use them, plenty spare, as the 755 order was to cover extension of some East Suffolk services to Liv St, doubling of Ipswich to Peterborough to hourly, uplift in Yarmouth service, and extension of Norwich to Camb to Stansted all day. None of this has been delivered and not likely to be (other than some Norwich Camb extensions to Stansted), so 755s spare for the forseeable future.


View attachment 138046

That's really useful, thank you.

 

[Railperf]

To be fair, my biggest issue is the mainly hourly frequency on Sundays which does cause very full trains - not helped by the folks that sit by in a pair of seats piling their bags into the empty seat next to them - dissuading anyone else sitting there. Sunday seems to be a very busy day for leisure travel! It seems Ipswich, Manningtree and Colchester passengers prefer the 745s over the awful 720's.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Where do you mean by south please?

I think it was Wembly

 

[Adrian1980uk]

I think dk1 is saying the Norwich Liv St service no longer includes the peak extra that used to sit in Orient Way all day (or go to Bounds Green for servicing as happened for a while)

The basis problem with the 745 arises because the promised timetable re-cast has not been delivered. The order of 10 first class units was on the basis of the below, with Norwich to Liv St in a standard time of max 1hr45mins, so the units would cycle every 4 hours, requiring 8 diagrams. Now the peak Stansted is back up to 4tph (and likely to be increased to all day before too long as loadings are good) there is much less spare capacity in the Stansted 745 fleet. So only way to resource the Norwich is to use 755s. Might as well use them, plenty spare, as the 755 order was to cover extension of some East Suffolk services to Liv St, doubling of Ipswich to Peterborough to hourly, uplift in Yarmouth service, and extension of Norwich to Camb to Stansted all day. None of this has been delivered and not likely to be (other than some Norwich Camb extensions to Stansted), so 755s spare for the forseeable future.


View attachment 138046

End of the day, GA have to get the maximum out of the 745 fleet and the support with 755. DFT will not allow innovative services and enhancements given the pressure on costs so best we can hope for is the recast of the GEML timetable

 

[dk1]

End of the day, GA have to get the maximum out of the 745 fleet and the support with 755. DFT will not allow innovative services and enhancements given the pressure on costs so best we can hope for is the recast of the GEML timetable

Very true. For the time being we will just have to muddle through trying to meet demands on the 745 fleet as best as possible. The only change this side of December is the possibility of reverting the StanEx to an all day 15 minute frequency. Negotiations are ongoing.

 

[Bald Rick]

The only change this side of December is the possibility of reverting the StanEx to an all day 15 minute frequency. Negotiations are ongoing.

Would be very surprised if that happens before next June. I’d even be surprised if it happens then.

 

[dk1]

Would be very surprised if that happens before next June. I’d even be surprised if it happens then.

The DfT, Manchester Airport Group & Greater Anglia have had meetings and staff told to watch this space so we’ll have to see.

 

[Bald Rick]

The DfT, Manchester Airport Group & Greater Anglia have had meetings and staff told to watch this space so we’ll have to see.

December timetable is finished imminently…

 

[dk1]

December timetable is finished imminently…

Possibly STP.

 

[Bald Rick]

Possibly STP.

Wont get through. Too big a change, with significant performance implications. Anyway we’re off topic.

 

[dk1]

Anyway we’re off topic.

Whoops!!! Apologies Mods. Me again!!!

I think it was Wembly

Not sure why Wembley. They go to Derby (Etches Park) and Hornsey for tyre turning on a regular basis.

 

[Mikey C]

Ultimately isn't this mess because Abellio ordered the wrong mix of trains. What they needed was

More 745/0s
Fewer 755s (if there are spare units to be used on Norwich services)
Fewer "commuter" 720s
A subclass of 720s for Stansted duties.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ultimately isn't this mess because Abellio ordered the wrong mix of trains.

Yes, they completely failed to predict the changes in traffic resulting from Covid…

 

[Mikey C]

Yes, they completely failed to predict the changes in traffic resulting from Covid…

But isn't that the flaw with such sweeping "big bang" fleet renewals, rather than just replacing stock as it's life expired, that circumstances change.

And how is the shortfall in 745/0s caused by Covid?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Yes, they completely failed to predict the changes in traffic resulting from Covid…

In some ways Covid bailed them out from a chronic rolling stock shortage. In the months leading up to covid there was up to 100 short forms a day.

Unfortunately as discussed at length at the time, the bid team sold the operations team a pup, which later Abellio realised and went and hired some proper operations people in key roles. Transport UK have had a restructure in the last few weeks so remains to be seen what happens.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Whoops!!! Apologies Mods. Me again!!!



Not sure why Wembley. They go to Derby (Etches Park) and Hornsey for tyre turning on a regular basis.

Definitely down south anyway in the area for whatever reason. Was strange to see one around to be fair. Luckily I spotted it from the train window.

 

[Class15]

Ultimately isn't this mess because Abellio ordered the wrong mix of trains. What they needed was

More 745/0s
Fewer 755s (if there are spare units to be used on Norwich services)
Fewer "commuter" 720s
A subclass of 720s for Stansted duties.

Basically, yes.

 

[chubs]

So the question being avoided, how many 745's (both 0 and 1) are out of use a day, and why?