Abellio Greater Anglia Class 755s (Regional Trains)

[gingertom]

I've found a spec for electric-only Flirts on Belarus' railway.
Relevant details:
4-car 132t 5-car 150t
2x powered bogies, 1000kw each, total tractive effort 200kN up to 47km/h 29m/h
acceleration 4-car 1.2m/s/s 5 car 1m/s/s

I calculate an electric 3-car would weigh in at around 104t and accelerate at 1.5m/s/s. What is as yet unknown is the weight of the power pods in the AGA bi-mode versions, 2 engines in a 3-car and 4 in the 4. This will reduce their acceleration somewhat.

https://wwwstadlerrailcom-live-01e9...951-868b01c6fc0f/flirt_blr_bzd0814ir_45en.pdf

 

[samuelmorris]

500kW traction motors? wow.
The Estonian FliRTs are rated at 1.2m/s^2 on electric and 0.85m/s^2 on diesel, I imagine the UK units will be similar in that regard.
[http://railcolornews.com/2014/06/18/flirt-trains-in-estonia-passengers-increased/]

This video may be quite helpful in terms of sound comparison - I appreciate they're not the same unit, but that should offer a little insight at noise levels.

 

[gingertom]

500kW traction motors?

and a 520kW engine to power it with a little left over for auxiiaries- I think someone's on to something here. Or got good grades at maths.

 

[samuelmorris]

Well, all I did was divide 2000kW from the specification document you provided, by the four traction motors you would have on two powered bogies. Not complex arithmetic :P
The point I was making was, that's massive - I thought most EMU/DEMU traction motors to my knowledge are usually 200-300 at most.

 

[Jonny]

I've found a spec for electric-only Flirts on Belarus' railway.
Relevant details:
4-car 132t 5-car 150t
2x powered bogies, 1000kw each, total tractive effort 200kN up to 47km/h 29m/h
acceleration 4-car 1.2m/s/s 5 car 1m/s/s

I calculate an electric 3-car would weigh in at around 104t and accelerate at 1.5m/s/s. What is as yet unknown is the weight of the power pods in the AGA bi-mode versions, 2 engines in a 3-car and 4 in the 4. This will reduce their acceleration somewhat.

https://wwwstadlerrailcom-live-01e9...951-868b01c6fc0f/flirt_blr_bzd0814ir_45en.pdf

Is the 'power pod' the short coach without the windows?

 

[gingertom]

Well, all I did was divide 2000kW from the specification document you provided, by the four traction motors you would have on two powered bogies. Not complex arithmetic :P
The point I was making was, that's massive - I thought most EMU/DEMU traction motors to my knowledge are usually 200-300 at most.

I think that's Stadler's standard traction bogie package, 2x 500kW motors. Point I'm making is they have made use of engines which accurately match the needs of those motors, which means for a bi-mode they will perform similarly on diesel as on electric. Unlike some others where the diesels, although very fine units in their own right, don't have enough horsepower to match the motors and performance suffers as a consequence.

 

[samuelmorris]

But there's only one engine per pair of traction motors, surely? The 4-car units will have two (no idea if any additional powered bogies for electric mode), but the 3-car units just have the one, so that'd be half the power rating.

 

[gingertom]

But there's only one engine per pair of traction motors, surely? The 4-car units will have two (no idea if any additional powered bogies for electric mode), but the 3-car units just have the one, so that'd be half the power rating.

the 3-car sets have 2 engines in the pod to drive 4 motors (2 out of 4?) so is a little more sluggish on diesel. The 4-car sets have 4 engines in the pod so performance should be the same on diesel as electric. i just hope the fuel tanks are big enough.

 

[bahnause]

Well, all I did was divide 2000kW from the specification document you provided, by the four traction motors you would have on two powered bogies. Not complex arithmetic :P
The point I was making was, that's massive - I thought most EMU/DEMU traction motors to my knowledge are usually 200-300 at most.

SBB FLIRTs are rated 2000kW continuous and 2600kW max (500kW / 650kW per motor). That seems to be the standard for most operators.

 

[hooverboy]

I think that's Stadler's standard traction bogie package, 2x 500kW motors. Point I'm making is they have made use of engines which accurately match the needs of those motors, which means for a bi-mode they will perform similarly on diesel as on electric. Unlike some others where the diesels, although very fine units in their own right, don't have enough horsepower to match the motors and performance suffers as a consequence.

that's still a pretty chunky improvement.

a turbo or 158 is about 2*300kW per set.
even assuming a 3 car set of 2*500KW than the quoted figure of 1.7m^s2( lets say 0.9m-1.2m^s2 in service), is not at all unrealistic.
pretty impressive.
I think in terms of drag ,it's probably a bit sleeker and easier on the juice as well

we just need to know what the fuel consumption per person/km figures will be now.Can it give that type of performance on a rural branch line and use half the fuel of a present sprinter (lets say 150/156)at the same time?

 

[edwin_m]

Trying to match electric performance with a diesel tends to have a big penalty in fuel consumption, as the engine is sized for accleration but is running at constant speed most of the time, which needs less power so the engine is operating inefficiently. And of course emissions line up (to varying extents) with consumption. The multiple engines may help with that, by shutting some down when cruising so the rest can be run at an efficient power setting.

 

[Class 170101]

Main report is, they shift. One quoted figure is 100mph in 100 seconds.

How fast is a Class 360 / Class 379 at reaching 100mph?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trying to match electric performance with a diesel tends to have a big penalty in fuel consumption, as the engine is sized for accleration but is running at constant speed most of the time, which needs less power so the engine is operating inefficiently. And of course emissions line up (to varying extents) with consumption. The multiple engines may help with that, by shutting some down when cruising so the rest can be run at an efficient power setting.

Battery hybrids would be a way to deal with this issue - use regen and run the engines slightly higher than idle when stationary to charge up, then use battery power to boost acceleration. It works well with the Toyota Prius. I believe Vivarail was looking at this at one point, too?

 

[edwin_m]

Battery hybrids would be a way to deal with this issue - use regen and run the engines slightly higher than idle when stationary to charge up, then use battery power to boost acceleration. It works well with the Toyota Prius. I believe Vivarail was looking at this at one point, too?

A variation would be to keep the engines idling or even shut down in stations to minimise pollution where people are exposed to it, and start the engine once out of the platform where maximum acceleration is needed. Guess it all depends on the duty cycle and the amount of battery and engine that are provided.

 

[ac6000cw]

Re. acceleration and power figures for the GA Flirts, the specs are here (on page 2 of this thread) - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...adler-flirt-trains.148431/page-2#post-3027536

 

[Domh245]

Surprised this didn't get picked up, but RAIL released an article about the testing, as well as a video clip

https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/1037681185097482240

Quiet is not a word that comes to mind watching that

 

[class387]

Surprised this didn't get picked up, but RAIL released an article about the testing, as well as a video clip

https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/1037681185097482240

Quiet is not a word that comes to mind watching that

Wow. That is loud.

 

[samuelmorris]

As I've just tweeted, that video's been taken on a phone camera by the sound of it, so the noise level will be hard to gauge as the frequency response of the video is all wrong. It's not going to be quiet, but compared to, for example, a 170? It really doesn't seem that bad. Consider how noisy the traction motors sound in that clip versus what most EMUs sound like. Also consider you aren't sitting over the top of it like on a regular DMU.

 

[Kyle1]

Probably a stupid question, but are these the same model that Keolis/Amey Transport for Wales will be getting?

 

[Domh245]

No such thing as a stupid question, but in short, probably not. They'll be a similar design, but I wouldn't expect them to be (for example) a 755/5, it'll be it's own subclass with subtle differences.

Indeed, doing a quick check shows that (at least one fleet of) the welsh flirts have 2 sets of doors on the leading vehicles, the anglia flirts have only set.

 

[Wivenswold]

Oooh I do like that racket.

 

[Railperf]

How fast is a Class 360 / Class 379 at reaching 100mph?

Class 360 does 0-60mph in around 45-50 seconds, 100mph in 2.5 minutes. I recorded an NSB Class 74 FLIRT achieving 100mph in around 1 min 45 secs and 125mph in little over 3 mins. Combination of high power / low weight and lower rolling resistance. The Class 360's are on old train now. Class 700 Desiros are much closer to FLIRT for acceleration.

 

[D6700]

Some high resolution video footage from Velim:

 

[mpb56125]

Unit 404 still in the Czech Republic. Was on the test track today, but unable to hang around to see it do a circuit.
https://mark5812.smugmug.com/Trains-2018/August-September-2018-Czech-Republic/i-jTXrvz6/A

Mark
https://mark5812.smugmug.com

 

[longhorn]

So what is the top speed in Electric and Diesel modes ?

 

[samuelmorris]

As far as I'm aware, 100mph for both. The FLiRT is capable of higher, but higher is unlikely to be needed any time soon on this route.

 

[jopsuk]

Do we know yet if they'll be able to get from Cambridge station to Coldham's Lane with the diesel off? It would certainly be prefferable

 

[dk1]

Do we know yet if they'll be able to get from Cambridge station to Coldham's Lane with the diesel off? It would certainly be prefferable

If you believe the latest staff briefs then yes, however the diesel engines take some time from cold to restart without causing damage. We will have to wait formor information/advice.

 

[43096]

If you believe the latest staff briefs then yes, however the diesel engines take some time from cold to restart without causing damage. We will have to wait formor information/advice.

Presumably, though, when under the wires the diesels will be pre-heated so they are ready to go.

 

[Tam]

Some photos from Velim today. Unfortunately there was no movement and (of course) the sun was in the wrong place.