Absence of London-bound services on Saturdays

[samuelmorris]

Just planning a couple of journeys in the next few weeks and I've been struck by the fact that there is no way of getting from anywhere in the North down to London late on a Saturday evening. Why is this?
As an example, the last train down from York to Kings Cross is 8pm on Saturdays, yet a much more reasonable 9:30 on Sundays.
Likewise, Manchester to Euston stops at 8:35 on Saturdays, 8:55 Sundays (which still isn't great, but it's still later).
Again, Sheffield to St Pancras is 7:30 Saturdays, 8:15 Sundays, and XC from Derby to Reading is only until 8pm both days.

How come you can travel later on Sundays than Saturdays on all of these routes?

 

[gordonthemoron]

engineering

 

[Iskra]

Demand. More people travel on Friday and Sunday evenings than Saturday evenings.

 

[Failed Unit]

Demand. More people travel on Friday and Sunday evenings than Saturday evenings.

The demand one I suspect is just an excuse from the TOCs

We all know examples of when a TOC has claimed no demand exists, then a TOC tries it and all is good. A recent example is TPEs early morning service from Manchester - Glasgow which Virgin claimed thier was no demand for (it is overcrowded from Lockerbie)

 

[TEW]

In my experience evening long distance services heading towards London are generally pretty lightly loaded.

 

[berneyarms]

Saturday night tends to be the one time that the engineers can take possessions of the lines to do work without causing massive problems.

Compared to other evenings, demand to London for long distance services is going to be lower.

 

[samuelmorris]

engineering

not on every line, surely?

I get the point about demand, but I would have expected there to be at least one possible route North-South at that time, even if multiple lines were closed early. Apparently not...

 

[Hadders]

It's not engineering work per-se but often used for routine inspections etc.

One of the reasons why, for example, the WCML timetable on a Sunday morning is slower than on other days as everything's timed for the slow lines. This doesn't mean that trains will always run on the slow lines on Sunday mornings but it means that it can happen without disrupting the timetable.

 

[Boodiggy]

They are not timed to run on the slow lines. The timetable is based on a two line railway until 1200 when the possessions are due to be given up. There is a cycle of four weeks fast line four weeks slow line.

 

[Hadders]

They are not timed to run on the slow lines. The timetable is based on a two line railway until 1200 when the possessions are due to be given up. There is a cycle of four weeks fast line four weeks slow line.

Surely the timetable doesn't change every 4 weeks depending on which lines are under possession?

I'd have thought that everything was timed as operating on the slows to cover all eventualities, if the fasts are used then the trains simply wait at stations for the booked departure time (or run slower on the fast lines).

I assume stopping patterns also has an impact if only 2 lines are available.

 

[Boodiggy]

Surely the timetable doesn't change every 4 weeks depending on which lines are under possession?

I'd have thought that everything was timed as operating on the slows to cover all eventualities, if the fasts are used then the trains simply wait at stations for the booked departure time (or run slower on the fast lines).

I assume stopping patterns also has an impact if only 2 lines are available.

You are right what I am saying is the possession plan is four weeks on the fasts four on the slows. It is to do with track inspection frequencies. The timetable is based on a two line railway, it makes no difference if it is fast line or slow line.

 

[Hadders]

I did notice they were inspecting the slows out of Euston this morning,

 

[Bald Rick]

not on every line, surely?

Yes, every line (main lines at least) will have some engineering work every Saturday night.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You are right what I am saying is the possession plan is four weeks on the fasts four on the slows. It is to do with track inspection frequencies. The timetable is based on a two line railway, it makes no difference if it is fast line or slow line.

I think you're both saying the same thing. The timetable is based on the timings needed using the slow lines. That doesn't mean they always use the slow lines.

 

[samuelmorris]

Yes, every line (main lines at least) will have some engineering work every Saturday night.

Sure, but I'd rather hoped they'd have timed it so that at least one route would start later. Means coming home from not exactly remote locations like Knaresborough, your 'last train' is at 7pm - the prospect of being stuck in York or Leeds all night if the NR service is 15 minutes late is pretty nerve-wracking too. Oh well, something to bear in mind in future I suppose.

 

[LowLevel]

Just planning a couple of journeys in the next few weeks and I've been struck by the fact that there is no way of getting from anywhere in the North down to London late on a Saturday evening. Why is this?
As an example, the last train down from York to Kings Cross is 8pm on Saturdays, yet a much more reasonable 9:30 on Sundays.
Likewise, Manchester to Euston stops at 8:35 on Saturdays, 8:55 Sundays (which still isn't great, but it's still later).
Again, Sheffield to St Pancras is 7:30 Saturdays, 8:15 Sundays, and XC from Derby to Reading is only until 8pm both days.

How come you can travel later on Sundays than Saturdays on all of these routes?

There is a 2029 Sheffield to Leicester SO that is a booked connection on to the last London train from there.

 

[30907]

York is rather exceptional in having such a late SX departure to London; in general last IC trains get in around 2330 SX, 2230-2300 Sat, so there's only an hour or less difference.

 

[Bald Rick]

Sure, but I'd rather hoped they'd have timed it so that at least one route would start later. Means coming home from not exactly remote locations like Knaresborough, your 'last train' is at 7pm - the prospect of being stuck in York or Leeds all night if the NR service is 15 minutes late is pretty nerve-wracking too. Oh well, something to bear in mind in future I suppose.

But having, say, the WCML open a couple of hours later one week wouldn't be much use to people in Knaresborough.

 

[samuelmorris]

It's just an example as that's where I'm going. It applies to any regional destination within moderate distance of Doncaster, Wakefield, Leeds etc.
The Sheffield to Leicester I hadn't spotted, that's sightly better but still very early compared to Sundays. Fair point though, something I suppose I'll have to get used to!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Well I came back from Luton Airport on Saturday evening on a slow Sutton train at 2000 or so - we were overtaken by an up HST EMT on the fast lines - heading obviously for St Pancras - it had about 30 passengers on the whole train. .........

 

[Bald Rick]

Well I came back from Luton Airport on Saturday evening on a slow Sutton train at 2000 or so - we were overtaken by an up HST EMT on the fast lines - heading obviously for St Pancras - it had about 30 passengers on the whole train. .........

That many?

 

[MCR247]

Well I came back from Luton Airport on Saturday evening on a slow Sutton train at 2000 or so - we were overtaken by an up HST EMT on the fast lines - heading obviously for St Pancras - it had about 30 passengers on the whole train. .........

Sounds like a Nottingham fast to me They tend not to be the busiest of trains even during the day! Even with yield management the 5 car (or 4 ) slow trains still seem to be just as busy!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Sounds like a Nottingham fast to me They tend not to be the busiest of trains even during the day! Even with yield management the 5 car (or 4 ) slow trains still seem to be just as busy!

It could have called at St Albans and doubled / trebled the load - especialy into London

 

[Abpj17]

Saturday night is an odd time to travel to London. Perhaps afternoon/early evening arrivals might be for dinner/theatre etc. with later trains leaving. Far more as above are the Friday and Sunday journeys combined with a need to engineer sometimes.

Bus replacement this weekend from St Albans to St P to look forward to....

 

[DarloRich]

Just planning a couple of journeys in the next few weeks and I've been struck by the fact that there is no way of getting from anywhere in the North down to London late on a Saturday evening. Why is this?
As an example, the last train down from York to Kings Cross is 8pm on Saturdays, yet a much more reasonable 9:30 on Sundays.
Likewise, Manchester to Euston stops at 8:35 on Saturdays, 8:55 Sundays (which still isn't great, but it's still later).
Again, Sheffield to St Pancras is 7:30 Saturdays, 8:15 Sundays, and XC from Derby to Reading is only until 8pm both days.

How come you can travel later on Sundays than Saturdays on all of these routes?

got to fix the railway at some point!

It is a general decision to curtail weekend evening services to allow for engineering possessions. Obviously there aren't works on all lines every weekend but it offers a window into which the works can be fitted as required.

Now the work could happen at other times but in a mid week night possession you really only get 3 hours on the tools. With a possession on Saturday night/Sunday morning you might get 10 hours. With such pressure on the infrastructure the longer window is desperately needed.

The WCML is a bit different as overnight and for parts of the weekend it is treated a two track railway between Euston & Roade to keep some services running. Even that isn't ideal and leads to problems for passengers, TOCs and maintenance! The other alternative is prolonged blockades and bustitution.