Accessing personal mobile phone records

[Bletchleyite]

Under our Contract of Employment, Neil.

Ah. So not so much seizure, but more that not handing it over would be gross misconduct.


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[GB]

If it is in your Contract of Employment then they can indeed do so.

I suggest you read the Data Protection Act. If there is the suspicion of a crime having been committed then data can be released. One of the reasons people are often arrested on a "holding charge" first.

I know this has been done in the last 5 years to a railway employee.

I never said the information can't be released to the authorities in certain circumstances. Company managers are not the authorities and have no right to personal phone records.

If a crime has been committed or suspected of being committed then this falls to the Police.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Wrong.
See above.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Some of the comments here suggest that some people have never read and understood all the words in the Contracts of Employment!

so why then do the NHS and major high street technology comoanies feel they are legally unable to do this ?

i am also suprised by the comments upthread about refusal to comply with an illegal request being seen as an admission of guilt ... even the wettest and most toothless 'staff association' rep would get that struck out of a discip never mind a proper Union rep ...

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I never said the information can't be released to the authorities in certain circumstances. Company managers are not the authorities and have no right to personal phone records.

If a crime has been committed or suspected of being committed then this falls to the Police.

still waiting to see where the legislation permtting this is or the case law that allows it as a contractural term.

especially given that SIA badged personnel cannot undertake a contact search or seize a person;s property ( driving licences and passports are not personal property they are the propertry of HMG via the relevevant executive agency which is why they can get away with retention of these documents passing them to their police liasion at the first appropriate / practical opportunity )

 

[tsr]

Whats the rule for Conductors are they allowed their phones?

Generally speaking yes, but never when carrying out safety-critical activities (eg. you can use it to look up information to assist a passenger between stations, but never during dispatch, or if in the leading cab and acting as a competent person while the train is being driven, etc. etc.).

You must also move to a position of safety if you wish to use a mobile phone when or or near the line, also with due regard for any other safety duties also taking place at the time (eg. if you were protecting the line in an emergency, you would lay detonators before making a phone call, then move to the position of safety and do so).

 

[GB]

deleted

 

[GB]

http://www.justanswer.co.uk/law/8prns-employer-ask-itemised-mobile-phone-bill.html

Your employer cannot force you to see your personal mobile phone bill, if it relates to a personal mobile phone you are using, even if it is for work purposes. Had this been a company phone then they would have the right to see the bills but not if it is your own personal one. If they wanted to access these records then they would either need your consent, or they must rely on a specific contractual term which you agreed to and which allows them to do that.
It is also important to consider the context of such a request. For example if there are allegations against you which the employer needs to investigate and they believe that these records will be helpful, whilst you cannot be forced to disclose them, you may wish to think whether it is nevertheless useful to do so in order to defend yourself. But again this is left entirely at your own discretion and you have the final say as to whether you disclose this or not – it is your own personal data and you cannot be forced to disclose it to anyone.

So other than your consent or contract of employment, your employer has no right to personal mobile phone records.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

http://www.justanswer.co.uk/law/8prns-employer-ask-itemised-mobile-phone-bill.html



So other than your consent or contract of employment, your employer has no right to personal mobile phone records.

and even as a contractural term it would be able to be challenged , also without ( the Police ) seizing the phone and/or sim card at or immediately after the alleged incident how can anyone prove that combination of IMEI/IMSI/ dialable number is the individuals phone....

 

[fabs]

I certainly do NOT have the right to sieze someone's mobile phone, nor do I have the right to compel them to show me their call log. Their rufusal to do so however will be made in front of a witness and they will sign something saying their consent to see/photograph their call log items was not given.

 

[Llanigraham]

so why then do the NHS and major high street technology comoanies feel they are legally unable to do this ?

Haven't a clue, and we are talking about railway companies

i am also suprised by the comments upthread about refusal to comply with an illegal request being seen as an admission of guilt ... even the wettest and most toothless 'staff association' rep would get that struck out of a discip never mind a proper Union rep ...

See comments about Contract requirements.

 

[fabs]

i am also suprised by the comments upthread about refusal to comply with an illegal request being seen as an admission of guilt ... even the wettest and most toothless 'staff association' rep would get that struck out of a discip never mind a proper Union rep ...

What wouldn't get struck out of a discipline is 'failure to assist an investigation' or 'willfuly withholding information from an investigation without good cause'. Which could be construed as gross misconduct.
If there's nothing to hide why not provide evidence? I'll bet the manager is not in the least bit interested in any of your private calls or texts, he'll be busy enough doing his job.

 

[Surreytraveller]

"If there's nothing to hide" should not be used by management to make people feel guilty, infere guilt or justify doing something which would otherwise be immoral.

 

[Surreytraveller]

so why then do the NHS and major high street technology comoanies feel they are legally unable to do t

Why would the NHS want access to mobile phone records?

 

[fabs]

"If there's nothing to hide" should not be used by management to make people feel guilty, infere guilt or justify doing something which would otherwise be immoral.

This isn't some Orwellian fantasy or conspiricy, or the tories snooping on you. If you are in charge of people's lives you have responsibilities and you are accountable for your actions. People aren't glibly accused of inappropriately using their devices whilst carrying out SC duties. But if you do it's a betrayal of trust and you have no place holding that position of responsibility.
It's not as simple as 'if you've nothing to hide'. Quite often post incident the question that's asked is 'would you be willing to share your phone records if necessary?'. If the answer is yes, much more often than not that's the end of it. If there's a point blank refusal then I'm afraid the person does warrant further investigation.

 

[GB]

If there's nothing to hide why not provide evidence? I'll bet the manager is not in the least bit interested in any of your private calls or texts, he'll be busy enough doing his job.

Maybe I don't want you (the manager) to see the texts and calls that have been going to and throw between me and your wife/girlfriend.....

 

[fabs]

Then redact them.

 

[Llanigraham]

Maybe I don't want you (the manager) to see the texts and calls that have been going to and throw between me and your wife/girlfriend.....

In the case I know of all they did was get the phone number off the phone and then got a read-out from the supplier of all the access for a period prior to the incident. They did not look at what was actually written in any texts. That is the same as the Police do if there is a suspicion of phone use prior to a road incident.
Typically the report shows a time and type of access, so:
Time : text to/from.
Time : phone call to/from number.
Time : data access.

 

[GB]

In the case I know of all they did was get the phone number off the phone and then got a read-out from the supplier of all the access for a period prior to the incident. They did not look at what was actually written in any texts. That is the same as the Police do if there is a suspicion of phone use prior to a road incident.
Typically the report shows a time and type of access, so:
Time : text to/from.
Time : phone call to/from number.
Time : data access.

If we are talking personal mobile phones then it all sounds extremely dodgy to me unless either they had permission from the phone owner or the number was written on the back. Even then I can't believe the phone supplier would give a third party such details as call records...again, either without permission or without a court order.

 

[Llanigraham]

Yes I am talking personal phones.
It happens.
I do not understand why you cannot accept it.

 

[GB]

I do not accept it because that is not what should be happening. Your telling me if I had your number I could just contact your phone company, tell them I'm xx, working for xxx and they will give me your details?

Yes I find that hard to believe.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Why would the NHS want access to mobile phone records?

Other than the thousands of employees /contractors who drive on the roads for them , or the allegations relating to people exporting confidential data / committing harassment....

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Why would the NHS want access to mobile phone records?

Other than the thousands of employees /contractors who drive on the roads for them , or the allegations relating to people exporting confidential data / committing harassment....

 

[Flying_Turtle]

When I did jury service all of the whatsapp transcripts were printed off with the timeline for us to read.

probably retrieved from the phone itself... not from whatsapp servers or any other service as their messages are encripted and not even they have access to messages

 

[W230]

probably retrieved from the phone itself... not from whatsapp servers or any other service as their messages are encripted and not even they have access to messages

Agreed. As I understand it, once they're deleted they're gone. Forever.

I was wondering about the data context of phone use but then I suppose a phone could be downloading data whether being directly used or in a bag.

Ultimately there is no power to a phone being seized (by a TOC), all that can be done is it asked for. But like has been said, refusal looks very poor on the individuals part. And in these circumstances TOCs, the BTP or whoever have no interest in the content of the message, just whether it's been sent.

Though I do also agree with GB in that I can't see how individuals can get hold of this information from phone providers.

A slight aside, another tool available is the ability to track where a phone is/was. Again, powers for this would usually require authorisation under RIPA but for BTP investigating a serious incident/accident this would at least in theory be possible were you to deny a phone was yours.

And ultimately your own TOC presumably have your contact number to ring you anyway!

 

[ComUtoR]

I do not accept it because that is not what should be happening. Your telling me if I had your number I could just contact your phone company, tell them I'm xx, working for xxx and they will give me your details?

Yes I find that hard to believe.

Ahh I see where there may be some confusion. I also do not believe that the phone company would ever willingly give over personal details as simple as that.

What happens at my TOC is that they will ask you to provide the records. It really is just as Fabs has stated. They ask. "would you be willing to provide phone records.."

I've even heard them ask just to see the call log on the phone itself and be happy with what is shown there.

 

[Llanigraham]

I do not accept it because that is not what should be happening. Your telling me if I had your number I could just contact your phone company, tell them I'm xx, working for xxx and they will give me your details?

Yes I find that hard to believe.

Fine, but I can tell you that if there is a serious incident that I was involved in, then my mobile phone could be withheld, as was stated in my contract, and a call log could and would be obtained, if it is thought that I might have been using the phone.

Remember that on the railway many serious incidents may be breaking the Law, so this is fully covered under the Act.

 

[headshot119]

Fine, but I can tell you that if there is a serious incident that I was involved in, then my mobile phone could be withheld, as was stated in my contract, and a call log could and would be obtained, if it is thought that I might have been using the phone.

Remember that on the railway many serious incidents may be breaking the Law, so this is fully covered under the Act.

But the employer Network Rail in a signallers case, would still need the employees permission, or police involvement. They aren't above the law.

 

[Llanigraham]

And no-one has suggested they are!

I suggest that some people need to read the relevant Act.

 

[GB]

Perhaps you could enlighten us?

 

[AnonymousUser1]

And no-one has suggested they are!

I suggest that some people need to read the relevant Act.

reference the the act and section that allows a manager to seize property has been asked for on a number of occasions in the thread .