Adjournment Debate Tonight: Electrification Of The MML

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GNER 91128

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For anyone that's interested there's a adjournment debate in the house of commons tonight from around 10pm.

Conservative MP for Loughborough Nicky Morgan will lead the debate.

"It is believed that the upgrade would bring substantial economic growth of £450m"

You can watch online or on BBC parliament.

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The debate is on now, a bit later than scheduled.

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The gist of the government's debate so far tonight is how much network rail believe it will cost and whether it ties in with what the government want to spend on other rail projects.

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And that's pretty much it, nothing clear cut there.
 
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Martin222002

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There might be support but it wont happen any time soon as it is not part of the agreed infrastrusture investment programme issued by the government. So unless they stump up more money............
That's where you are wrong. It is in the IIP for CP5 spending, which is to be agreed in July I believe. Network Rail are fully behind electrifying the MML, as it has a better business case than the GWML which the DfT put first.

Also there is a second article on "this is Derbyshire", which follows on from the first which says that the Prime Minister has promised to "look closely" at the campaign for the electrification of the Midland Main Line.

http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/P...ng-main-line/story-15838207-detail/story.html

A collective body of councils in the region, East Midlands Councils, has also launched a campaign website, www.mmlinvest.org, which has the full report and technical note by ARUP for East Midlands Councils and the South Yorkshire Transport Executive on the case for the MML's electrification.
 

WatcherZero

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Hes technically right, funding hasnt been agreed yet its only in NR's list of desirable projects from which the Government will pick and choose which it will allow them to borrow for. Even if it makes CP5 funding apporval it wont open until the 2020's.
 

DXMachina

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There isn't enough electric passenger stock on order to actually run a service if it was electrified, is there?

If the go-ahead is given is this likely to lead to a larger IEP order being placed or just more 390s? I know that Meridian units could be electrified or made into bi-modes but there aren't enough of those either really.. and EMT's HSTs are ageing but not currently scheduled for replacement?
 

DarloRich

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Hes technically right, funding hasnt been agreed yet its only in NR's list of desirable projects from which the Government will pick and choose which it will allow them to borrow for. Even if it makes CP5 funding apporval it wont open until the 2020's.
Exactly - i assumed the purpose of the debate was to try and make a case to move the project up the list and assign it a higher priority. The funding is not yet commited
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For clarity - i am not saying that MML electrification SHOULDNT happen!
 

Oswyntail

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One of the chief functions of an adjournment debate is for an MP to raise a matter of interest to his constituency as a debate - without a vote - in Parliament. It raises the profile of the issue among members, and gives an opportunity for ministers to test the waters. It commits no one to anything but can be influential. This is what happened here. Higher profile than the MP getting a written response or an oral answer at questions.
 

daniel3982

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I can see the govt using investment in HS2 as an excuse not to invest in MML, even though it's 20 years away at least, and will only be beneficial for those living near EMA and Meadowhall & not the other towns and cities along the route.

The MML has been the cinderella mainline for far too long, as electrification seems a no-brainer to me. Even if it does end up electrified could see an order for 350/4's being tacked on & the service downgraded in the same way Manchester -> Scotland has been.
 

DXMachina

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Even if it does end up electrified could see an order for 350/4's being tacked on & the service downgraded in the same way Manchester -> Scotland has been.
Actually that sounds a lot more likely to me (although given the timescales I'd expect whatever gets ordered to be more similar to the Desiro City but with more of an intercity interior)

Lots of the MML is apparently 100/110 anyway, I wonder if a powerful enough commuter EMU with 110mph capacity could outperform a 125mph diesel overall..
 

tbtc

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There isn't enough electric passenger stock on order to actually run a service if it was electrified, is there?
No, but then there wasn't for the GWML (and its weaker business case) I guess.

Regardless, I can't see anything changing this decade, given the need to wire up the lines around Manchester/ Reading etc that resources have been commited to. It'd be nice to know that there was "jam tomorrow", but any announcement today about electrification would still take several years before any masts are errected. One day...
 

WatcherZero

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GWML came into being because they had to do a complete signalling renewal anyway and it was cheaper to do both at the same time. MML signalling renewal was done 2005-2010 wasnt it?
 

brianthegiant

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(HS2) will only be beneficial for those living near EMA and Meadowhall & not the other towns and cities along the route.
You think the East Midlands HS station will go at the airport? slight lack of onward rail connections there?
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GWML came into being because they had to do a complete signalling renewal anyway and it was cheaper to do both at the same time. MML signalling renewal was done 2005-2010 wasnt it?
My guess is the cost saving of combining works is marginal. MML has the benefit of wires already as far as Bedford.
new signalling on MML has some way to go yet, but I suppose should be finished before start of CP5
 
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HSTEd

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Electrification on the MML has also just recieved a huge upgrade so that it should easily be able to manage intercity trains (the whole Autotransformer feeding thing).
 

dosxuk

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There isn't enough electric passenger stock on order to actually run a service if it was electrified, is there?
Well, it's not likely to even start being kitted out till 2020. So not much point in ordering stock now to run the services if they're just going to be sat in sidings for 10+ years. Ordering stock once the project has been confirmed and timescales fixed would be much more sensible.

Lots of the MML is apparently 100/110 anyway, I wonder if a powerful enough commuter EMU with 110mph capacity could outperform a 125mph diesel overall..
Remember the line used to have commuter style DMU's before they were replaced with IC style DMU's. IIRC, there are several stretches of the line being upgraded to 125mph running anyway.

GWML came into being because they had to do a complete signalling renewal anyway and it was cheaper to do both at the same time. MML signalling renewal was done 2005-2010 wasnt it?
The MML cost-benefit work calculated that it would save money to upgrade the line, where as all the other now announced schemes would require investment.

www.networkrail.co.uk/networkrus_electrification.pdf
 

DXMachina

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Well, it's not likely to even start being kitted out till 2020. So not much point in ordering stock now to run the services if they're just going to be sat in sidings for 10+ years. Ordering stock once the project has been confirmed and timescales fixed would be much more sensible.
I do hope they think this through - I'm thinking that because IEP was scaled down to NOT include HST replacement there's a real risk of new IC diesels or Bi-Modes being ordered in the next 5 years or so. The HST's will be over 40 years old by the time wires go live, are there any stopgap solutions that don't entail ordering stock for a very short useful life?
 

Yew

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are there any stopgap solutions that don't entail ordering stock for a very short useful life?
I suppose some New locos to pull the HST mk3's? Or ordering new BI mode stock (or LHCS ;) ) that can then be cascaded to crosscountry or similar. Or maybe if IC225's are going spare we could hook some 67's to the front and run those for a while?
 

Edvid

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Electrification on the MML has also just recieved a huge upgrade so that it should easily be able to manage intercity trains (the whole Autotransformer feeding thing).
That work was part of the Thameslink Programme - and even then the AT system goes no further north than the outskirts of Borehamwood; nowt to do with the IEP.

The ECML, on the other hand, will acquire an AT system from London to Doncaster as part of the IEP.
 

WatcherZero

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The MML cost-benefit work calculated that it would save money to upgrade the line, where as all the other now announced schemes would require investment.

www.networkrail.co.uk/networkrus_electrification.pdf
Thats on an operational basis, the opportunity with the GWML was they could do both work at the same time, insulated signalling, shared possessions, shared planning and management, no need to reposition lineside structures.

Probably saved a third the cost of doing both individually.
 

Waverley125

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wiring the MML makes a lot of sense, especially if at the northern end you wire Sheffield-Doncaster and Sheffield-Leeds via both Moorthorpe and Barnsley. You get not only through IC trains but also locals being converted to electric traction and, as a bonus, a boost in the CBR for the XC network, as it leaves only Derby-Birmingham unelectrified between Birmingham and Edinburgh. Also, you'd then just have Horbury Junction-Mirfield to wire to have the entire diversion line via Wakefield from Leeds-Huddersfield.

I'd hope to eventually see something like

Huddersfield-St Pancras (Barnsley, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby, Leicester)

Leeds-St Pancras (Wakefield Westgate, Rotherham Masborough, Sheffield, Chesterfield, EMP, Leicester, Bedford)

from West Yorks to London down the MML.
 

YorkshireBear

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wiring the MML makes a lot of sense, especially if at the northern end you wire Sheffield-Doncaster and Sheffield-Leeds via both Moorthorpe and Barnsley. You get not only through IC trains but also locals being converted to electric traction and, as a bonus, a boost in the CBR for the XC network, as it leaves only Derby-Birmingham unelectrified between Birmingham and Edinburgh. Also, you'd then just have Horbury Junction-Mirfield to wire to have the entire diversion line via Wakefield from Leeds-Huddersfield.

I'd hope to eventually see something like

Huddersfield-St Pancras (Barnsley, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby, Leicester)

Leeds-St Pancras (Wakefield Westgate, Rotherham Masborough, Sheffield, Chesterfield, EMP, Leicester, Bedford)

from West Yorks to London down the MML.

Can i just suggest one thing. I would take the rotheram masborough stop out as that would severly reduce capacity. However if you stop that one or the barnsley one at meadowhall (big car park and i think probably quite convenient for a lot of rotheram) that would work very well especially in short-medium term.
 

Bald Rick

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MML south of Loughborough is being resignalled by 2020 to ETCS L2, which ties in nicely with the wiring in the CP5 plan. As electrifications go, this is a pretty simple one. For rolling stock expect a stop gap measure until some Pendolinos come free in 2026.
 

RichmondCommu

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Actually that sounds a lot more likely to me (although given the timescales I'd expect whatever gets ordered to be more similar to the Desiro City but with more of an intercity interior)

Lots of the MML is apparently 100/110 anyway, I wonder if a powerful enough commuter EMU with 110mph capacity could outperform a 125mph diesel overall..
Customers on the MML would not be impressed with Class 444's or 350's replacing the current HST's and Meridians. Many years ago when BR was proposing to extend electrification to Kettering commuters were worried that they would lose their HST service altogether. Given the planned 125 mph upgrades and the sharp curves between Derby and Bedford more Pendolino’s are surely the answer.
 

Chris125

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As the MML is being upgraded to 125mph in many locations there's no prospect of HST's or Meridians being replaced by Desiro's, and with the DfT saying that TOC's will have more of a say about rolling stock orders its hard to see IEP's being seriously considered due to the well known extra costs involved.

Given the likely timescales for electrifying the MML it could benefit either from a cascade or add-on order to a replacement for the 91's and Mk4's, and the GEML will need its fleet replaced too in due course.

Chris
 
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tbtc

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As the MML is being upgraded to 125mph in many locations there's no prospect of HST's or Meridians being replaced by Desiro's
There's still the Corby service, the slow Nottingham and the slow Derby/Sheffield each hour, which presumably wouldn't be pathed for 125mph on any stretch?

350s on the fast Sheffield and fast Nottingham, maybe not, but for the services that stop at Wellingborough etc one may be more appropriate than a 225 rake.
 

Kneedown

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There's still the Corby service, the slow Nottingham and the slow Derby/Sheffield each hour, which presumably wouldn't be pathed for 125mph on any stretch?

350s on the fast Sheffield and fast Nottingham, maybe not, but for the services that stop at Wellingborough etc one may be more appropriate than a 225 rake.
IF the MML gets wired, then by the time everything is completed maybe the semi-fasts will become an extension of Thameslink, with fast services using HS2 once phase 2 opens.
In short, downgrading the line to a glorified commuter route.
 
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There's still the Corby service, the slow Nottingham and the slow Derby/Sheffield each hour, which presumably wouldn't be pathed for 125mph on any stretch?
The second Sheffield service runs non-stop from Leicester to London! The semi-fasts (hardly slow - faster than the HSTs north of Leicester) will have ample oppurtunity to run at 125mph.
 

Rhydgaled

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If Desiros of any form end up on Intercity services, I hope it will be Intercity-style Desiros, something like the calss 444 or 5-WES with a bit more space and full buffet facilities. I think a better idea though would be converting the Meridians to bi-mode (which also lengthens them). Then you can do electrification slowly if only parts are due to be re-signalled. For example if the southern section needs resignaling first you could make the London - Nottingham route fully-electrified and order new EMUs that are something like a cross between a mark 3 and a Meridian for that route allowing the bi-mode 222s to run the other routes and release the IC125s. Then, when it ties in well with resignalling/whatever else, you can electrify the other routes, get more EMUs like the first ones and release the 222s to XC or something like that.
 

Bald Rick

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IF the MML gets wired, then by the time everything is completed maybe the semi-fasts will become an extension of Thameslink, with fast services using HS2 once phase 2 opens.
In short, downgrading the line to a glorified commuter route.
Thameslink won't be going north of Bedford.
 
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