Advance and SWT Reservations

[Mark_re]

Hi all,

I have an advance single from Winchester to Stowmarket. The Winchester - Waterloo section is obviously unreserved, but did we ever resolve on here whether I must take the connection, as suggested by the journey planner? I ask as it has put me on the slow service, whereas it would be much more pleasant to take the fast.

Thanks,

Mark

 

[LexyBoy]

The official rule, as per the Advance Fares FAQ, is that any non-reservable "connecting service" may be used. This isn't documented anywhere in the public domain however so is debatable whether it can apply.

Some would argue that taking trains other than those shown in the booked itinerary would constitute a change of travel plans and thus require a change to the ticket, and that taking a reservable train would show evidence of this as if this train had been chosen at the time of booking then a reservation would be issued. However if the ticket had been booked at a station, for example, it would be less obvious what the booked itinerary was, except for those services for which reservations were issued. The only documentation necessary to be taken on the journey is the ticket and reservations, so the passenger has no way of knowing which connecting trains they can or can't take.

I don't think you'd have any trouble with the journey (are there ever ticket checks on that route anyway?). Maybe some of the SWT staff here could throw in their opinion.

 

[island]

I don't think SWT issues reservations, for what it's worth.

 

[John @ home]

I don't think SWT issues reservations, for what it's worth.

When I last used a SWT Advance ticket in May 2012, I was issued with a travel ticket marked "VALID ONLY WITH RESERVATION(S)" and reservation voucher for "Coach * Seat ***".

I don't think there is any method easily available to a member of the public to determine whether a train not displaying the reservable diamond in the National Rail Timetable is in fact operating this reserved place system.
EDIT For my best guess on how a member of the public may do this, see post #10 below.

 

[wintonian]

When I last used a SWT Advance ticket in May 2012, I was issued with a travel ticket marked "VALID ONLY WITH RESERVATION(S)" and reservation voucher for "Coach * Seat ***".

I don't think there is any method easily available to a member of the public to determine whether a train not displaying the reservable diamond in the National Rail Timetable is in fact operating this reserved place system.

Correct, SWT don't have reservations for specific seats but have reserved places on specific trains, I thought we had concluded that such trains counted as reservable for the purposes of the advance FAQ and could only be used on the service reserved - after all the tickets do say "booked train only" and not "booked seat only". If this is the case then there are no unreservable trains on this route and the train on the coupon would have to be used.

The AP FAQ says:

Q25. Can passengers on an advance ticket travel on earlier connecting trains?

A. Yes if it is non-reservable, no if it is reservable.

I would say SWT services are reservable even though no actual seat is allocated a reservation is still issued.

As a regular user of Winchester - Waterloo I would be surprised if tickets were not checked somewhere en route or even twice, most likely after Basingstoke/ Woking but could be at anytime before Clapham Junction.

 

[LexyBoy]

If this is the case then there are no unreservable trains on this route and the train on the coupon would have to be used.

Do you just mean the fast services? The OP doesn't have a reservation for this leg which would suggest there are some non-reservable services (or the system doesn't always issue reservations even when possible).

As a regular user of Winchester - Waterloo I would be surprised if tickets were not checked somewhere en route or even twice, most likely after Basingstoke/ Woking but could be at anytime before Clapham Junction.

For clarification I asked as I don't use that route, I basically never see staff on the SWT routes I use (RDG-WAT and suburban routes within Greater London). Didn't mean to sound sarky in case it came across that way.

 

[wintonian]

Do you just mean the fast services? The OP doesn't have a reservation for this leg which would suggest there are some non-reservable services (or the system doesn't always issue reservations even when possible).

Thinking about it I think this must be a Greater Anglia AP as SWT don't do AP's from Winchester (and mainly to London when they do) which is why I have never used a SWT AP, so in that respect I couldn't really answer your question.

If this is an GA AP then it will a &connections ticket - maybe they don't all print with reservations for the SWT leg? I don't know but the ones I have used always have had reservations (such as mentioned by John @ Home) for SWT.

For clarification I asked as I don't use that route, I basically never see staff on the SWT routes I use (RDG-WAT and suburban routes within Greater London).

Certainly on the urban 450/5, 455 routes its rare to see a guard, I don't tend to use the 58's so wouldn't know about them.

Didn't mean to sound sarky in case it came across that way.

No you didn't - did I?

 

[LexyBoy]

Thinking about it I think this must be a Greater Anglia AP as SWT don't do AP's from Winchester (and mainly to London when they do) which is why I have never used a SWT AP, so in that respect I couldn't really answer your question.

If this is an GA AP then it will a &connections ticket - maybe they don't all print with reservations for the SWT leg? I don't know but the ones I have used always have had reservations (such as mentioned by John @ Home) for SWT.

Indeed, it's +AP GRTANG&CONCTS. Why there's no reservation coupon for the SWT leg I couldn't say - there's no easy way to find out whether services have this pseudo-reservable quality from the public domain anyway so it seems silly to worry about. This seems to be one of those routes where the "AP" part can be the shortest part of the journey, for example Weymouth-Ipswich has AP tickets with the same routeing.

No you didn't - did I?

No, just looked back at my first post and thought it could be read as a whinge that one never sees guards, what do we pay them for, shouldn't they be catching all the fare dodgers etc...

 

[wintonian]

Indeed, it's +AP GRTANG&CONCTS. Why there's no reservation coupon for the SWT leg I couldn't say - there's no easy way to find out whether services have this pseudo-reservable quality from the public domain anyway so it seems silly to worry about. This seems to be one of those routes where the "AP" part can be the shortest part of the journey, for example Weymouth-Ipswich has AP tickets with the same routeing.




No, just looked back at my first post and thought it could be read as a whinge that one never sees guards, what do we pay them for, shouldn't they be catching all the fare dodgers etc...

The simplest thing to do here is to ask the OP if they have a coupon for the SWT leg with departure time on it?

 

[John @ home]

I would say SWT services are reservable even though no actual seat is allocated a reservation is still issued.

On page 5 of the National Rail Timetable, "How to use this Timetable" tells us that a diamond symbol indicates that a service has seat reservations. Table 158 of the National Rail Timetable (London – Basingstoke, Southampton, Romsey, Lymington, Bournemouth and Weymouth) shows that some but not all SWT services have seat reservations. In general, trains leaving Waterloo at xx05 and xx35 do; other trains don't.

This would seem to indicate that a passenger with an Advance ticket and a travel itinerary for a service which Table 158 shows does not have seat reservations is free to use a different service without seat reservations. A passenger with an Advance ticket and a travel itinerary for a service which Table 158 shows does have seat reservations is likely to have a reserved place and, if so, they must use that service.

 

[wintonian]

On page 5 of the National Rail Timetable, "How to use this Timetable" tells us that a diamond symbol indicates that a service has seat reservations. Table 158 of the National Rail Timetable (London – Basingstoke, Southampton, Romsey, Lymington, Bournemouth and Weymouth) shows that some but not all SWT services have seat reservations. In general, trains leaving Waterloo at xx05 and xx35 do; other trains don't.

This would seem to indicate that a passenger with an Advance ticket and a travel itinerary for a service which Table 158 shows does not have seat reservations is free to use a different service without seat reservations. A passenger with an Advance ticket and a travel itinerary for a service which Table 158 shows does have seat reservations is likely to have a reserved place and, if so, they must use that service.

Well I don't know why the eNRT shows that but SWT do not offer seat reservations for any service as shown here and here

Seat reservations are not offered on South West Trains services

Getting a seat

We operate a "walk on" service, which means that you can join any South West Trains service if you have a valid ticket. This is one of the many benefits of train travel and as a result we cannot guarantee you a seat, especially during peak periods or during disruption. However, we always aim to provide as many seats as we can to minimise the number of passengers who have to stand.

We no longer offer seat reservations on our trains and you are free to choose where you sit. Standard class tickets are not valid in first class except for Weekend First upgrades or where you have paid the appropriate excess fare.

 

[John @ home]

SWT do not offer seat reservations for any service as shown here and here

Do you draw any conclusion from that?

• Are the services with a diamond symbol in the NRT those for which reserved places are issued?
• Are holders of these reserved places with Advance tickets limited to one particular train?
• Do those with an itinerary for a train with no diamond symbol have more flexibility?

 

[Goatboy]

I can't see how a single court in the land would rule it is reasonable to expect a customer in posession of an '& Connections' Advance Ticket to know that they cannot travel on a train with a diamond in the timetable but can choose any with no diamond.

As such I suspect the only practical answer to this issue is that if you have a reservation slip with a train on it you must travel on that train, otherwise you can use any reasonable connection. Which is pretty much exactly what the public facing National rail website says.

 

[wintonian]

Do you draw any conclusion from that?

Are the services with a diamond symbol in the NRT those for which reserved places are issued?

As I have insinuated in #7 there possibly are services which don't operate the system on SWT, but couldn't say for sure.

But where are we directed to look at the (e)NRT to discover if a service is reservable or not? Could we not look at the TOC's own printed timetable instead - where for SWT diamonds are no longer shown, but were when seat reservation were carried?

Are holders of these reserved places with Advance tickets limited to one particular train?

All advance purchase tickets are only valid on the train specified on the reservation coupon, and most if not all say "booked train only"

However this may be possible if the passenger is travelling on an &connections leg::

Q25. Can passengers on an advance ticket travel on earlier connecting trains?

A. Yes if it is non-reservable, no if it is reservable.

But as (possibly only some) SWT trains are reservable (note the FAQ says whether the train offers reservations, not whether it offers seat reservations) then &connections tickets will only be additonaly valid on any non reservable trains.

Do those with an itinerary for a train with no diamond symbol have more flexibility?

No diamond symbol - according to which timetable?

Does a diamond symbol indicate that seat reservations are carried or just that it is possible to reserve a place on the train?*

Until we know which timetable you a referring to here and what a diamond symbol actually means, the question cannot be answered.

*The 'Symbols and References' section of the eNRT and the Reservations page referred to by it, both use the term "seat reservations". Accordingly I assume that the diamond symbol refers to those train on which it is possible to reserve a seat and should not be present in the eNRT for SWT services - also it does not offer any indication about whether a service is reservable or not.

 

[SussexMan]

Excuse my ignorance but do Advance Tickets which are "...& Connections" ever come with a reservation for the Connections bit? i.e. you get TWO reservation tokens but one ticket?

 

[John @ home]

do Advance Tickets which are "...& Connections" ever come with a reservation for the Connections bit? i.e. you get TWO reservation tokens but one ticket?

You can have more than two reservations. For example, at the time of writing East Coast offer an Advance Single Shanklin - Wick route + EC & Connections for £100.90 at 15:18 on Monday 12 November:

1. 15:18 Shanklin - Ryde Pier Head 15:42
2. Ferry 15:47 Ryde Pier Head - Portsmouth Harbour 16:09
3. 16:15 Portsmouth Harbour - London Waterloo 17:54
4. London Underground London Waterloo - London Kings Cross
5. 19:00 London Kings Cross - Edinburgh 23:34 E 29A - Table, Window, Backwards
6. 08:34 (13 Nov) Edinburgh - Inverness 12:03 (13 Nov) A 45F - Toilet, Table, Window, Forwards
7. 13:59 (13 Nov) Inverness - Wick 18:15 (13 Nov) B 13F - Table, Aisle, Forwards.

For legs 1 - 4, it is reported that "Reservations for this part of your journey are not possible". Reserved seats are offered for each of legs 5 - 7 and the journey would be issued as 4 coupons, one travel ticket and 3 seat reservations.

 

[telstarbox]

Excuse my ignorance but do Advance Tickets which are "...& Connections" ever come with a reservation for the Connections bit? i.e. you get TWO reservation tokens but one ticket?

I've had a triple-reservation single Advance ticket before (Bedford-Leicester-Sheffield-Manchester Pic) - where all three trains were reservable.

 

[calc7]

I imagine with a journey like Newquay to Wick one might be able to get 5 or 6 reservable legs, but I can't be bothered trying right now.

 

[SussexMan]

Sorry, perhaps I should re-phrase my question. Can you get an Advance Single which gives you more then one reservation but with different TOCs?

For instance if the ticket is EC & Connections, do you ever get a reservation for a leg of the journey which isn't with EC?

 

[MCR247]

Yes, look at the shanklin to wick example

 

[SussexMan]

I've had a triple-reservation single Advance ticket before (Bedford-Leicester-Sheffield-Manchester Pic) - where all three trains were reservable.

All three legs may have been "reservable" but did all three Reservations come with the Advance ticket and were they an integral part of getting the Advance (as opposed to two being optional reservations)?

 

[John @ home]

In the Shanklin - Wick example in post #16, all three trains 5 - 7 come with compulsory reserved seats. The seat numbers I was offered (E 29A, etc.) are shown to the right of the destination arrival time. The ticket is Shanklin - Wick route + EC & Connections, even though two of the three reserved seats are on ScotRail trains.

 

[telstarbox]

All three legs may have been "reservable" but did all three Reservations come with the Advance ticket and were they an integral part of getting the Advance (as opposed to two being optional reservations)?

Yes - I had to travel on three specific trains. The ticket said "Bedford to Manchester Stations, valid only with reservations" and each of the three reservations said "valid at 1000", "valid at 1107" etc.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Sorry, perhaps I should re-phrase my question. Can you get an Advance Single which gives you more then one reservation but with different TOCs?

For instance if the ticket is EC & Connections, do you ever get a reservation for a leg of the journey which isn't with EC?

With advance tickets you get a reservation for every reservable train in the journey plan. Only those which are not reservable will not have a reservation.

Many Advance tickets for Birmingham to Penzance are routed XC & Connections (there may be some 'XC Only' fares). The 1342 from Birmingham New Street (reservable XC Voyager) connects at Taunton with the 1549 Penzance service (reservable FGW HST). An Advance on this journey would give you one ticket and two reservations.

 

[SussexMan]

With advance tickets you get a reservation for every reservable train in the journey plan. Only those which are not reservable will not have a reservation.

Can I explore that a little more? Southern offer some advances on the Eastbourne to London Trains. Now I wouldn't have normally called these services "reservable" but as I understand it, all Advance Tickets come with a reservation. If so, is that train "reservable" or by reservable do we mean you can buy an AnyTime ticket and also book a seat reservation? If so, are we saying that you can have an Advance Ticket reservation on a non-reservable train?

If I book Eastbourne to York as an Advance, I've never been given a reservation for the Southern leg of the journey. And the restriction says "ROUTE OF TICKET EC & CONNECTNS - Travel is only allowed on the train specified on the reservation and any connecting services. It cannot be used on any other service.". The above to me says that the Southern element is a connecting service (EC & Connections) and then it says "and any connecting services".

If so, are we saying that you can have an Advance Ticket reservation on a non-reservable train?

 

[telstarbox]

Good point.

 

[SickyNicky]

You can have more than two reservations. For example, at the time of writing East Coast offer an Advance Single Shanklin - Wick route + EC & Connections for £100.90 at 15:18 on Monday 12 November

It's worth pointing out here that you should always check walk up fares when looking at such tickets. For a return ticket you could buy a Super Off Peak Return for £7 extra that would allow travel on this itinerary and yet is quite flexible and you wouldn't need to worry about whether services are reservable or not (although you would need to watch the time restrictions).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....If so, are we saying that you can have an Advance Ticket reservation on a non-reservable train?

I don't know how Southern do their reservations so I'm not in the best place to comment on that. Perhaps I should have taken more time to compose the post, perhaps something crystal clear like "where reservations are possible you will get a reservation".

 

[AndyLandy]

I frequently purchase AP tickets from Southampton to Hartford, via London. This is a Virgin West Coast + connections ticket and invariably I'm issued three reservation coupons:

• One for the SWT leg from SOU-WAT, on either the xx00 or xx30 departure.
• One for the main Virgin leg, EUS-CRE on either the xx10 or xx40 departure.
• One for the LM leg from CRE-HTF.

All three are "booked train only" reservations, but only the Virgin leg has an associated seat reservation, the other two have "* ***" in that section. I've been told by SWT guards that I'm required to ride the booked service in this case.

On rare occasions, it's possible to get an Advance ticket for a journey that doesn't use one of the SWT (semi-)fast services. In that instance, you don't get a reservation coupon for that stretch at all.

I'm informed that officially, in this case, the rules say that you cannot use the (semi-)fast trains, but on the occasions I've had this happen, I've sought permission from the guard before boarding and have been permitted to ride on these services.

 

[John @ home]

are we saying that you can have an Advance Ticket reservation on a non-reservable train?

An example may help.

Yesterday, I collected tickets for a return Leeds - London journey using Advance Singles. At the time of booking, the cheapest tickets I could find were via Barnsley. The route shown on the ticket is AP EMT & CONNECT.

For the Leeds - London leg, the ticket is issued together with one seat reservation for the 1427 Sheffield - London train. ISSUED AS 02 COUPONS is printed on the ticket and this makes it clear to any inspector that no reservation voucher has been issued for the Leeds - Sheffield part of the journey. As a result, the passenger has some flexibility and may choose to travel by the train suggested at the time of booking (1305 Leeds - Sheffield) or by another non-reservable train which enables the 1427 Sheffield - London to be caught.

For the London - Leeds leg, ISSUED AS 03 COUPONS is printed on the ticket and there is a seat reservation for the 1355 London - Sheffield and a reserved place on the 1618 Sheffield - Leeds. In this instance, the passenger appears to have less flexibility. The use of any train other than those suggested at the time of booking is likely to be challenged.

The absence of a reserved place on the 1305 Leeds - Sheffield may be related to the fact that no Leeds - Sheffield Advance tickets are available for that train on the chosen date of travel. The presence of a reserved place on the 1618 Sheffield - Leeds may be related to the fact that £6 Sheffield - Leeds Advance tickets are currently available for that train on the chosen date of travel. Neither of these trains have reserved seats. Northern Rail uses the reserved place system on this route.