Advance Luton to Honiton

[sliver]

Hi, probably a really silly question but I wanted to check what connections I could use.

I have an advance single Luton to Honiton on 22 Dec. £28.40 Specified SWR trains and connections only.

My mandatory reservation puts me on the 15:20 from Waterloo which I completely understand.
The coupon also includes the 13:56 East Midlands service to St Pancras.

Do I need to use the 13:56 to St P? I think I'd prefer to take an earlier Thameslink service to West Hampstead and jump on the Jubilee Line there. I wasn't sure if I had inadvertently booked an advance single from Luton as part of the journey and I couldn't find a detailed itinerary from Chiltern who I booked via.

Apologies if this is a really straightforward one, and thanks in advance

 

[JonathanH]

Do I need to use the 13:56 to St P?

Yes.

I think I'd prefer to take an earlier Thameslink service to West Hampstead and jump on the Jubilee Line there. I wasn't sure if I had inadvertently booked an advance single from Luton as part of the journey and I couldn't find a detailed itinerary from Chiltern who I booked via.

You will have to put it down to experience as the ticket is valid for booked trains only, regardless of whether those are with SWR or other operators.

It would have been necessary to specify using the West Hampstead switch as part of the original booking.

There are booking engines available which would have allowed this to be specified.

 

[sliver]

Yes.

You will have to put it down to experience as the ticket is valid for booked trains only, regardless of whether those are with SWR or other operators.

It would have been necessary to specify using the West Hampstead switch as part of the original booking.

There are booking engines available which would have allowed this to be specified.

Thank you, I thought as much.
I booked ages ago and couldn't remember exactly what I'd chosen, and the lack of clarity from the Chiltern site wasn't helping. I think in the past I'd had tickets with pretty much any connection to Waterloo but I must have inadvertently picked a slightly cheaper fare with an Advance from Luton.

Since i cant travel earlier on this ticket, If I am delayed either in my 13:56 East Mids connection or there are tube delays and I miss the 15:20 will I be allowed on the next SWR service?

 

[JonathanH]

I booked ages ago and couldn't remember exactly what I'd chosen, and the lack of clarity from the Chiltern site wasn't helping. I think in the past I'd had tickets with pretty much any connection to Waterloo but I must have inadvertently picked a slightly cheaper fare with an Advance from Luton.

From Luton, both the EMR trains and Thameslink services now have counted place reservations, so there is no longer any flexibility on connections into other services. Also, it may be the case that a connection on Thameslink is more expensive if the quotas don't line up with the SWR train.

Since i cant travel earlier on this ticket, If I am delayed either in my 13:56 East Mids connection or there are tube delays and I miss the 15:20 will I be allowed on the next SWR service?

The 13:56 arrives at St Pancras at 14:22 and looks like it is a fairly punctual service on Recenttraintimes. I think you would be somewhat unlucky to miss the 15:20 from Waterloo.

With a through and valid itinerary, SWR have an obligation to carry you on the 16:20 from Waterloo if there are delays to the earlier connections.

 

[miklcct]

Yes.

You will have to put it down to experience as the ticket is valid for booked trains only, regardless of whether those are with SWR or other operators.

It would have been necessary to specify using the West Hampstead switch as part of the original booking.

There are booking engines available which would have allowed this to be specified.

Unfortunately West Hampstead Thameslink - Waterloo isn't set up as a fixed link in the National Rail timetable data, hence no retailers can sell you such an itinerary on an Advance ticket. If you specify changing at West Hampstead Thameslink, the system will most likely generate a connection using the Overground, forcing you onto a specific Thameslink train (as Bedford - Brighton trains are also reservable). In such case using the Jubilee instead of the Overground is a grey area because the Overground train won't be printed on the ticket, but you will board your reserved SWR train at Waterloo instead of Clapham Junction.

I suggest that you should contact GTR Customer Service about the issue of not being able to use West Hampstead Thameslink - Waterloo tube link as part of a through journey on an Advance ticket.

 

[MrJeeves]

Do I need to use the 13:56 to St P? I think I'd prefer to take an earlier Thameslink service to West Hampstead and jump on the Jubilee Line there.

You can use an earlier service, if you use GTR.

GTR have an (unpublished) exception to the Advance itinerary rules. If either a Southern, Thameslink or Great Northern train is the connecting part of an Advance ticket (like in your case, since your ticket is SWR & Connections), you are permitted to use any GTR service to complete your journey even through retail systems will enforce a reservation.

There is an exception from this exception for itineraries involving a change at Cambridge for Greater Anglia, but this doesn't apply here.

Ticketing is a mess.

 

[wibble]

Yes you can use an earlier service.

GTR have an (unpublished) exception to the Advance itinerary rules. If either a Southern, Thameslink or Great Northern train is the connecting part of an Advance ticket (like in your case, since your ticket is SWR & Connections), you are permitted to use any GTR service to complete your journey even through retail systems will enforce a reservation.

There is an exception from this exception for itineraries involving a change at Cambridge for Greater Anglia, but this doesn't apply here.

Ticketing is a mess.

But the OP has stated that they are booked on the 13:56 EMR to St Pancras, not a GTR service so this "exception" doesn't apply.

 

[Hadders]

Yes you can use an earlier service.

GTR have an (unpublished) exception to the Advance itinerary rules. If either a Southern, Thameslink or Great Northern train is the connecting part of an Advance ticket (like in your case, since your ticket is SWR & Connections), you are permitted to use any GTR service to complete your journey even through retail systems will enforce a reservation.

There is an exception from this exception for itineraries involving a change at Cambridge for Greater Anglia, but this doesn't apply here.

Ticketing is a mess.

That’s interesting, although as noted the OP is booked onto an EMR service to connect.

Appreciate it’s an unpublished restriction but presumably there must be something written down somewhere about it, otherwise how do you know about it?

 

[JonathanH]

GTR have an (unpublished) exception to the Advance itinerary rules. If either a Southern, Thameslink or Great Northern train is the connecting part of an Advance ticket (like in your case, since your ticket is SWR & Connections), you are permitted to use any GTR service to complete your journey even through retail systems will enforce a reservation.

What is the point of that, if it is unpublished? I can see that being of help in avoiding someone having to stay in London longer than necessary if the connection is after the trunk leg.

Taking a different connection on the way to the trunk leg runs the risk of missing the connection (unless someone goes earlier).

Ticketing is a mess.

Nothing simpler than saying that a booked train with a mandatory reservation is only valid on those trains.

 

[alistairlees]

That’s interesting, although as noted the OP is booked onto an EMR service to connect.

Appreciate it’s an unpublished restriction but presumably there must be something written down somewhere about it, otherwise how do you know about it?

Mr Jeeves has been reading Internal Knowledge Base.

 

[MrJeeves]

That’s interesting, although as noted the OP is booked onto an EMR service to connect.

Appreciate it’s an unpublished restriction but presumably there must be something written down somewhere about it, otherwise how do you know about it?

Ah... oops...

But yes, on the iKB

 

[Iggy12a]

Yes you can use an earlier service.

GTR have an (unpublished) exception to the Advance itinerary rules. If either a Southern, Thameslink or Great Northern train is the connecting part of an Advance ticket (like in your case, since your ticket is SWR & Connections), you are permitted to use any GTR service to complete your journey even through retail systems will enforce a reservation.

There is an exception from this exception for itineraries involving a change at Cambridge for Greater Anglia, but this doesn't apply here.

Ticketing is a mess.

Would this apply to a Southern booked train and connections ticket?

A few weeks ago, I found a bargain ticket from Chichester to Norwood Junction with a counted place on the 8:10 Chichester to Horsham, and then a very slow itinerary via Epsom, but no subsequent counted places.
Could I in fact have stayed on my original train through to East Croydon and arrived in Norwood Junction about an hour earlier, arguing that I had fulfilled my booked part of the journey, and was now travelling by any connecting GTR service?

 

[MrJeeves]

Would this apply to a Southern booked train and connections ticket?

No, it doesn't apply for journeys where Southern/Thameslink/Great Northern are the main/only TOC for the advance.

If I was trying to use this rule I'd rather stick to the letter of it (or an interpretation that couldn't be confused) rather than try and claim that.

Edit: On a second look at the rule (unwritten was meaning publicly unwritten!), I think it could potentially be possible to use the rule here, but I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[Watershed]

There is an exception from this exception for itineraries involving a change at Cambridge for Greater Anglia, but this doesn't apply here.

And a counter-counter-exception to the Greater Anglia counter-exception to the GTR exception which applies "if the connection with Greater Anglia services is at London Liverpool Street or Stratford", whatever that is supposed to mean. Clear as mud.

 

[MrJeeves]

And a counter-counter-exception to the Greater Anglia counter-exception to the GTR exception which applies "if the connection with Greater Anglia services is at London Liverpool Street or Stratford", whatever that is supposed to mean. Clear as mud.

I mean that bit is just reiterating that the exemption doesn't apply when changing at Cambridge. It's not really an exemption to the exemption as the original exemption already made that rather clear.

 

[sliver]

I'm very glad I asked and even more glad (kind of) it wasn't as silly a question as I thought.
Thanks for the replies