Advance Purchase Tickets - the daily battle!

[Sheffcaster202]

Hi All

More of a moan/complain/rant than anything but as a member of on train crew regularly checking tickets I am finding the number of people with AP tickets on the wrong trains is massively increasing, the most common reason I am given is “oh but it’s still the same company” “where does it say only 1 train” or in cases where they need to buy on board “oh it says it’s only £8 on the app” when the SDS ticket I’m selling is £56!

Does anyone else think retailers/tocs really need to be pushing the T&Cs with these tickets, a little line saying “specified train only” really doesn’t seem to be working and (as I’m sure many people do) I don’t study the T&Cs when ticking the little box for a purchase online! Also, reiterate the fact these tickets are discounted heavily from the normal fares as no one seems to understand how expensive train travel really is without AP tickets anymore!

It just seems to be the norm now to buy any old ticket as cheap as possible then travel when you feel like it and it’s made so easy by retailers and tocs to just buy a ticket without realising the consequences of having the wrong one

As I said I don’t really know what I want from this post and it’s more of a vent about the daily situation I face at work!

 

[Haywain]

I think most online sales outlets make it as clear as they can that Advance tickets are for fixed trains, and I don't know how it could be pushed more than it is. However, some chancers will always try it on and if they get away with it will keep trying it on.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

I think most online sales outlets make it as clear as they can that Advance tickets are for fixed trains, and I don't know how it could be pushed more than it is. However, some chancers will always try it on and if they get away with it will keep trying it on.

I was thinking perhaps make it red on the E-Tickets, bold on the paper TOD or TVM ones, warning pop up when buying through the Apps etc.

I had a group of 12 and separate group of 4 on Sunday all with AP tickets, the bigger group were late because "we went for breakfast" and the smaller just didn't think it mattered and said "its the same company though" none were particularly happy at new tickets costing £18 each!

 

[yorkie]

On trains I catch, and where ticket inspections are made (i.e. generally most of my journeys apart from those on TPE, where it's quite rare to be checked) the vast majority of tickets are deemed valid and it is only a small minority who are asked to pay for new tickets or excess fares.

Asking for a new Anytime fare is asking for trouble; the rules used to be that the lowest priced walk-up fare would be charged and I don't understand why that isn't the case today. It's bad enough to say the original ticket holds no value, but to then to demand payment of the Anytime fare (at [super] off peak times) is bound to lead to conflict. I believe some TOCs may still have a policy of only charging the lowest priced walk-up fare, which is a much more sensible policy. Anything else is putting employees in an unnecessary position of conflict, in my opinion, which is irresponsible on the part of the employer.

How could retailers make it clearer? Look at the forum's site for instance, if there is something that could be done, the developers will read the suggestion and look into it.

 

[blakey1152]

I personally think that Advance tickets are great for people who suffer from anxiety, because you know you've bought a ticket for a specific train so its valid on the train you're on and there's nothing to worry about
Rather than a walk up ticket which may or may not be valid at the time or train company or route or something else that I haven't thought about to be told by the guard checking the tickets that you've not got a valid ticket...

Unfortunately, if people don't read what train they are on then there can be some confusion, I seem to recall that at one point there were two trains leaving Euston at the same time that both went to Birmingham and I can imagine that in that kind of circumstance that issues may well arise

 

[greatkingrat]

I personally think that Advance tickets are great for people who suffer from anxiety, because you know you've bought a ticket for a specific train so its valid on the train you're on and there's nothing to worry about
Rather than a walk up ticket which may or may not be valid at the time or train company or route or something else that I haven't thought about to be told by the guard checking the tickets that you've not got a valid ticket...

Unfortunately, if people don't read what train they are on then there can be some confusion, I seem to recall that at one point there were two trains leaving Euston at the same time that both went to Birmingham and I can imagine that in that kind of circumstance that issues may well arise

I would say the opposite, people who suffer from anxiety would be more likely to avoid Advance tickets as they would be worried about missing the booked train and having to buy a new ticket.

 

[blakey1152]

I would say the opposite, people who suffer from anxiety would be more likely to avoid Advance tickets as they would be worried about missing the booked train and having to buy a new ticket.

I think it depends. I'm paranoid about being late so I'm at the station for long distance journeys at least an hour before my train. It's easier to get there super early and have a coffee than rush there with a few minutes to spare. But I'm sure some people just love the thrill of the chase to get there just in time lol

 

[Bletchleyite]

It reads a bit like the TOC involved in the discussion is a regional one. I'm very much not convinced Advance tickets make sense on this sort of operation; I'd bin them. They only make sense really on long distance travel where people tend to plan in advance a lot more.

 

[westv]

I personally think that Advance tickets are great for people who suffer from anxiety, because you know you've bought a ticket for a specific train so its valid on the train you're on and there's nothing to worry about

Replaced with the anxiety of missing the train so getting there an hour before it leaves!

 

[SteveM70]

I think the one thing that could reasonably be done is rephrase some of the language into everyday English. For example "specified train only" could become "you can only use this ticket on the xx:xx from A to B"

 

[1D54]

Many train managers specify before departure that if you are on an AP ticket make sure you are on the correct train or a new ticket will need to be purchased. Even if no such announcement is made there is no excuse for 'trying it on' and coming out with all sorts when challenged.. I've often politely asked if i can board an earlier train, some guards say yes and some say no but its crazy just to board and bluff.

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

I have seen the opposite happen a lot too, to people I’ve spoken to, who buy an off peak ticket, but think that they have to travel on the specific train they selected on the app. “Oh, I’ll buy two singles, as I don’t know what time I’ll be returning yet”. It‘s probably less obvious this misunderstanding happens as it wouldn’t come up during a ticket check.

There seems to be a relatively easy solution in the way the apps work though. At the moment, pretty much all of them ask you to choose: stations travelling between > time > specific train. Instead, they should ask: stations travelling between > ticket type. Here the options should be something like “Any train” “any off peak train” “a specific train”. Only if you select the latter should options for times come up. Making user choose one of three options would, I believe, vastly increase their realisation of what they are choosing.

 

[Haywain]

Instead, they should ask: stations travelling between > ticket type. Here the options should be something like “Any train” “any off peak train” “a specific train”. Only if you select the latter should options for times come up.

But that sounds like you are introducing a lot of faff to find out what is cheapest.

 

[transportphoto]

I've often politely asked if i can board an earlier train, some guards say yes and some say no but its crazy just to board and bluff.

The man on the platform said I could get on this train… is a common bluff. The problem is that it’s so hard to tell whether it’s true or not.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

Asking for a new Anytime fare is asking for trouble; the rules used to be that the lowest priced walk-up fare would be charged and I don't understand why that isn't the case today. It's bad enough to say the original ticket holds no value, but to then to demand payment of the Anytime fare (at [super] off peak times) is bound to lead to conflict. I believe some TOCs may still have a policy of only charging the lowest priced walk-up fare, which is a much more sensible policy. Anything else is putting employees in an unnecessary position of conflict, in my opinion, which is irresponsible on the part of the employer.

When you’re performance measured on only selling to condition 6 of NRCOT you kind of have to do this…

It reads a bit like the TOC involved in the discussion is a regional one. I'm very much not convinced Advance tickets make sense on this sort of operation; I'd bin them. They only make sense really on long distance travel where people tend to plan in advance a lot more.

You’d be correct and if we could do that it would be a whole lot less hassle, would be a huge shock to some of our passengers if this happened though!

I think the one thing that could reasonably be done is rephrase some of the language into everyday English. For example "specified train only" could become "you can only use this ticket on the xx:xx from A to B"

In big bold red letters…would be amazing!!

 

[1D54]

Surely 'the man on the platform' has no authority to give permission to board if given the true story so it has to be a bluff.

 

[JonathanH]

Many train managers specify before departure that if you are on an AP ticket make sure you are on the correct train or a new ticket will need to be purchased.

That is fine to do at Kings Cross or Euston before the departure of a long distance train where passengers turn up 15 minutes before departure.

It doesn't work on frequent stopping regional and local trains where advance fares are typically only valid between the bigger stations in any case.

These are the advance fares that simply cause too much confusion and conflict between passengers and revenue staff. While it is nice to be able to travel at cheaper fares where these advance purchase tickets exist, I can fully understand the position of some posters who think they should be withdrawn and only walk up tickets should be available.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

Surely 'the man on the platform' has no authority to give permission to board if given the true story so it has to be a bluff.

One of the things that is very frustrating, no real way of proving it, the passenger can say ring them etc but it would take an age to get through to them and you’d be forever late

Also, an “authorised person” can allow travel etc but that’s another can of worms, generally it would be good practice for said person on platform to speak to train staff but in a real world situation it often gets missed because there is so much going on

We get many stories like this, “I’ve been locked up all night and police told me I could travel for free to get home” “the man on barriers said this” etc etc

 

[JonathanH]

As I said I don’t really know what I want from this post and it’s more of a vent about the daily situation I face at work!

Removal of advance fares for short hop journeys I guess?

 

[Watershed]

When you’re performance measured on only selling to condition 6 of NRCOT you kind of have to do this…

I find it difficult to believe that anyone would be fired for being too lenient on passengers. The job is as hard as you make it, and whilst I appreciate the frustration of people either trying it on or not properly reading the terms of what they're buying, ultimately it's your decision how you handle that situation. Charging people the maximum possible is naturally going to get their backs up.

Surely 'the man on the platform' has no authority to give permission to board if given the true story so it has to be a bluff.

If they are an authorised person within the meaning of the Byelaws, they do have the authority. The definition in the Byelaws includes anyone who is acting in the course of their employment by a TOC or agent thereof. It's not for the passenger to second-guess whether an employer wants their employee to say something; there is plenty of precedent as to the meaning of "course of employment".

However, your post reflects the unacceptable attitude that some staff have, which is that the passenger should automatically be assumed to be lying, 'on the fiddle' or otherwise in the wrong...

 

[zero]

I think the one thing that could reasonably be done is rephrase some of the language into everyday English. For example "specified train only" could become "you can only use this ticket on the xx:xx from A to B"

But that could still be misinterpreted when there is a delay, as recently seen in the Disputes section. A train going from A to B turned up at the time specified on the ticket, but it wasn't the booked train!

 

[etr221]

Surely 'the man on the platform' has no authority to give permission to board if given the true story so it has to be a bluff.

If he (and assuming he is a member of railway staff) gives permission, then my assumption is that he is authorised: if he isn't, he shouldn't be giving (or denying) permission. And if I can't assume that anybody appearing to be an authorised person is so, then there is a need for them to demonstrate that they are indeed an authorised person.

 

[transportphoto]

When you’re performance measured on only selling to condition 6 of NRCOT you kind of have to do this…

It’d be interesting to have an insight as to the differing approaches taken by TOCs to performance manage revenue. I know at least one TOC whereby revenue protection is at the bottom of the list of priorities and customer service should always come above (difficult balance to be had).

 

[LowLevel]

The current stupid vogue of having advance fares for piddling little journeys where for the last century plus no one would have thought of anything but a flexible fare doesn't help.

Trainline App doesn't make it clear either - it flashes *Cheapest* but you have to click on the price with the little arrow to get the full range of fares and detailed explanations shown at once to give context.

Liverpool to Manchester is particularly harrowing.

Northern Advance
TPE Advance
EMR Advance
TfW Only fares to Warrington Bank Quay from Manchester with an itenary including a subsequent walk to Warrington Central (!!) so the journey plan overview says Manchester Piccadilly to Warrington Central.
Off Peak Day Single or Return (Northern Only)
Off Peak Day Single or Return (Any Permitted)
Anytime Day Single or Return (Northern Only)
Anytime Day Single or Return (Any Permitted)
Off Peak Return (Any Permitted)
Anytime Short Return (Any Permitted).

Years of TPE just not turning up so people get used to using their tickets on whatever train.

30, 40, 50 of the sodding Northern Only fares on a train with 150 people on it is far from unusual. The conductor is not equipped to deal with it as just trying to explain what the issue is to one person takes anywhere up to 10 minutes, especially when you're charging 17 quid when they originally paid 3 quid.

There should be a functionality in the retail system to penalise the retailer and fare setter when the fare is subsequently misused and a new ticket is verifiably sold and scanned with a link. That might encourage them to stop messing around making life difficult.

 

[Mainline421]

I think most online sales outlets make it as clear as they can that Advance tickets are for fixed trains, and I don't know how it could be pushed more than it is. However, some chancers will always try it on and if they get away with it will keep trying it on.

Apps like Trainline don't make clear the ticket you're buying if you're actively looking for it. They just display a price for standard class and another for 1st with a "Quick buy" button. I can see how that, coupled with the requirement to select a train even for a flexible tickets could easily make occasional users mistakenly believe they're purchasing walk-up tickets, or assume they must travel on a specific train, when the opposite is true.

The recent expansion of flows and advance on the day will likely exacerbate the issue.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

I find it difficult to believe that anyone would be fired for being too lenient on passengers. The job is as hard as you make it, and whilst I appreciate the frustration of people either trying it on or not properly reading the terms of what they're buying, ultimately it's your decision how you handle that situation. Charging people the maximum possible is naturally going to get their backs up.

It’s something quite close to the heart of the management team and the TOC where I’m at and forms part of your reviews and under performance has to be justified, there have been several people put on development plans over revenue figures and yes, unlikely to be fired but it’s not nice to work feeling like you’re being monitored and fulfilling customer service side whilst trying to “stick to the rules”

Apps like Trainline don't make clear the ticket you're buying if you're actively looking for it. They just display a price for standard class and another for 1st with a "Quick buy" button. I can see how that, coupled with the requirement to select a train even for a flexible tickets could easily make occasional users mistakenly believe they're purchasing walk-up tickets, or assume they must travel on a specific train, when the opposite is true.

It’s actually very difficult to select anything but an advance on apps like Trainline, if you want an off peak/anytime/1st ticket you have to go into the advance and then use the minuscule arrow and option for “more tickets from £…” so for the average buyer this can cause a lot of confusion

 

[LowLevel]

It’s something quite close to the heart of the management team and the TOC where I’m at and forms part of your reviews and under performance has to be justified, there have been several people put on development plans over revenue figures and yes, unlikely to be fired but it’s not nice to work feeling like you’re being monitored and fulfilling customer service side whilst trying to “stick to the rules”


It’s actually very difficult to select anything but an advance on apps like Trainline, if you want an off peak/anytime/1st ticket you have to go into the advance and then use the minuscule arrow and option for “more tickets from £…” so for the average buyer this can cause a lot of confusion

Revenue figures or sticking to the letter of the rules?

My revenue figures are generally very healthy indeed but I also use plenty of discretion with minor issues, which is strongly encouraged by my TOC.

I've never heard a whisper in all the years I've worked of anyone being told "you sold someone a ticket with a railcard out of this station with a ticket office, why?" for example but plenty of cases of "why are you not taking any revenue?".

 

[xotGD]

Can folks please stop slagging off short distance Advances?

The availability of these tickets saves me a few quid every time I need to go into Leeds. They are a godsend.

 

[trainophile]

This is what jumped out at me:

”…no one seems to understand how expensive train travel really is without AP tickets anymore!…”

(from the OP, can’t do a proper quote on phone)

It’s almost as if we’re being given some gracious benevolence when finding an affordable Advance ticket that meets our requirements. It’s probably just as well that cheaper tickets are visible, or no-one would ever consider using the railway unless someone else was paying.

 

[Starmill]

It’s something quite close to the heart of the management team and the TOC where I’m at and forms part of your reviews and under performance has to be justified, there have been several people put on development plans over revenue figures and yes, unlikely to be fired but it’s not nice to work feeling like you’re being monitored and fulfilling customer service side whilst trying to “stick to the rules”

I'm afraid that you have the customers that you have. Obviously I appreciate that you don't want to be put into an awkward position at work, but as you've hinted that you'd like some advice, I'd say you could articulate this internally.

The train operators are in control of the terms and conditions where these tickets are available or not. Nobody else is in control of this. If they choose to make very radical changes to the way products are priced and the terms they come with, as Northern and LNER have on short journeys in the past few years, they're going to experience some changes in customer behaviour ss a result.