Advance Ticket Validity | Taunton - Colchester

[Laryk]

I'm travelling from Taunton-Colchester on an advance ticket, now the first part of the journey from Taunton-Paddington has a reservation coupon and is valid on the 1126 only.

The second part from Liverpool Street-Colchester does not have a reservation coupon. Does this mean any Train is valid for the journey? (I'm thinking time, rather than route).

I've attached the relevant tickets

 

[LexyBoy]

Officially any non-reservable train can be used, i.e. all but the Norwich services.

 

[Laryk]

Ahh, that's disappointing. Thanks for your help though.

 

[SussexMan]

Officially any non-reservable train can be used, i.e. all but the Norwich services.

I thought that any "reasonable" train can be used on the "connections" part of an Advance. When I go on the National Rail website it says this about that specific journey:

ROUTE OF TICKET AP LONDN READING - Travel is only allowed on the train specified on the reservation and any connecting services. It cannot be used on any other service.

What is the source of your information which prevents use on the Norwich trains?

 

[LexyBoy]

The Advance Fares FAQ says so. I would agree that the definitive source of information, NRE, doesn't say anything about it so it's arguable how enforceable it is.

I'd be surprised if a guard on a Norwich train took issue to it, but that's the "official" line as I understand it.

 

[Goatboy]

I'm not sure an FAQ on this forum is of much use to the typical passenger who won't even know it exists. Therefore how are they to read it?

The National Rail website, which most passengers will know exist, has a page on Advance fares:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html

On it, it says:

If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

It makes no mention of the fact the train needs to be unreservable. Infact other than on this forum I've never seen that mentioned before and it caused me particular concern when I found out about it after asking a month or two ago.

Your average passenger at a station waiting for a connecting service will have no idea if a train is reservable or not and there appears to be nothing to say it shouldn't be, either.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm not sure an FAQ on this forum is of much use to the typical passenger who won't even know it exists.

That's the FAQ contained with The Manual, an official industry website, not an FAQ from this forum. Admittedly not many passengers will know about that either but it's still the official industry source of information. Whether the rule can be enforced is, however, up for debate. Seeing as NRE doesn't make mention of it (and that's the source that most passengers can reasonably be assumed to have accessed) I'd suggest no it isn't an enforceable restriction.

 

[SussexMan]

The National Rail website, which most passengers will know exist, has a page on Advance fares:

On it, it says:

If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

Unless I'm missing something on the ticket, it doesn't actually say "and Connections". And we shouldn't assume that most passengers will know about the National Rail website.

However as I said earlier the ticket clearly has the following conditions which as I see it, fall within the NRCOC 1 (c):

ROUTE OF TICKET AP LONDN READING - Travel is only allowed on the train specified on the reservation and any connecting services. It cannot be used on any other service.

Whether the rule can be enforced is, however, up for debate. Seeing as NRE doesn't make mention of it (and that's the source that most passengers can reasonably be assumed to have accessed) I'd suggest no it isn't an enforceable restriction.

I see no need for a debate about some other conditions contained in "The Manual" or any other document which are not made available by the TOC when purchasing the ticket and therefore cannot form part of the NRCOC.

 

[ainsworth74]

I see no need for a debate about some other conditions contained in "The Manual" or any other document which are not made available by the TOC when purchasing the ticket and therefore cannot form part of the NRCOC.

I agree with you but I wouldn't want to speak on the TOCs/ATOCs behalf.

 

[Laryk]

Interesting. The reason I ask is I had a change of plan, and now intend to cycle from Paddington to Liverpool Street. Therefore:
A) I am presumably responsible for any delays, and
B) I would rather take my bike on a more 'bike friendly' train.

 

[SussexMan]

Interesting. The reason I ask is I had a change of plan, and now intend to cycle from Paddington to Liverpool Street. Therefore:
A) I am presumably responsible for any delays, and
B) I would rather take my bike on a more 'bike friendly' train.

I don't see a problem with that at all. I regularly walk between London Terminals instead of taking the tube. I think you would need a substantial delay on your cycle journey for it to be a problem.

 

[jopsuk]

Get a slow/stopper- the Norwich trains are "Compulsory Reservations" for bikes.

 

[34D]

Interesting. The reason I ask is I had a change of plan, and now intend to cycle from Paddington to Liverpool Street. Therefore:
A) I am presumably responsible for any delays, and
B) I would rather take my bike on a more 'bike friendly' train.

Get a slow/stopper- the Norwich trains are "Compulsory Reservations" for bikes.

My advice would be to approach the guard before departure from LST (guard likely to be in buffet or DVT) show your ticket, and explain you have a bike but no bike reservation and ask if you can travel please.

If full, wait for the next class 90.

Don't forget Boris bikes as another option to cross London by cycle.

 

[Searle]

The way I see it, is that you can get on any train if there is no reservation ticket given to you. I have a ticket from York - Bournemouth, routed +EC&Connections with a reservation from York - Kings Cross, and then from Waterloo - Bournemouth, so I have to get those trains. I would be annoyed if I got caught out by catching a service with reserved seats on a 'Connections' part of a ticket, and I shouldn't think you would

 

[transportphoto]

I would be annoyed if I got caught out by catching a service with reserved seats on a 'Connections' part of a ticket, and I shouldn't think you would

You may well be annoyed, but to the book it isn't valid - it seems that when people meet an inspector who follows the rules 'to the tee' and don't get the discretion that have come to expect, all they do is moan.

'& Connections' are only valid, unless reservation given, on non - reservable services, if you are given a reservation, you have to travel on that service; however Ticket Inspectors are permitted to exercise discretion, you aren't to rely on this.

TP

 

[SussexMan]

I have a ticket from York - Bournemouth, routed +EC&Connections with a reservation from York - Kings Cross, and then from Waterloo - Bournemouth, so I have to get those trains. I would be annoyed if I got caught out by catching a service with reserved seats on a 'Connections' part of a ticket, and I shouldn't think you would

Are you saying that you also have a reservation from Waterloo to Bournemouth as part of the Advance ticket? i.e. two separate reservations?

You may well be annoyed, but to the book it isn't valid - it seems that when people meet an inspector who follows the rules 'to the tee' and don't get the discretion that have come to expect, all they do is moan.

'& Connections' are only valid, unless reservation given, on non - reservable services, if you are given a reservation, you have to travel on that service; however Ticket Inspectors are permitted to exercise discretion, you aren't to rely on this.

TP

What am I missing? The conditions on the ticket are:

ROUTE OF TICKET XC &CONNECTIONS - Travel is only allowed on the train specified on the reservation and any connecting services. It cannot be used on any other service.

Please tell me where a customer is advised that they can only travel on "non-reservable" services? If they aren't then they do not form part of the contract under the NRCOC. And I didn't think you could reserve any seats on South West Trains anyway.

Are you taking the information from The Manual which is quoted in the FAQ on Advance fares? If so, the question is "Q25. Can passengers on an advance ticket travel on earlier connecting trains?". Even if this could be enforced then the question is about earlier services so doesn't therefore relate to later services.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I have been thinking this over since the FAQs were released (to staff) and watching people react to it and I have come to the conclusion that this particular FAQ is not clearly written and applies to Advance tickets that are not routed '& Connections'. Imo, it is meant to give the following meaning.

Where the ticket is not routed '& Connections': The ticket must be used on the reserved services. If a portion of the journey has not been reserved, travel by any reasonable non-reservable service, that maintains a connection with the reserved service(s), can be used. If a reservable service is used during the unreserved portion of the journey, the ticket will not be valid.

Where the ticket is routed '& Connections': The portion of the journey reserved on the services of the TOC named on the ticket must be made on the reserved service(s), but connecting services may be any services that have reasonable connections, that can be found on a travel itinerary (for example from NRES), to those TOC services.

Example: A passenger is travelling from London to Paignton.

If they hold a ticket routed 'AP Slough' they must use the reserved service(s), any unreserved portions of the journey can use services that are non-reservable and still maintains a connection with the reserved service(s).

If they hold a ticket routed 'SWT & Connections' they must use the SWT service(s) that have been reserved (for the duration they are reserved), but may use any services that connect with the reserved SWT service(s) and can be shown on an itinerary.

I think this is about the best interpretation I can come up with that fits the T&Cs and the FAQs, though it may not be perfect.

 

[LexyBoy]

I have come to the conclusion that this particular FAQ is not clearly written

Railway guidelines, conditions or restrictions not clearly written? Shurely shome mishtake? :roll:

Where the ticket is not routed '& Connections': The ticket must be used on the reserved services. If a portion of the journey has not been reserved, travel by any reasonable non-reservable service, that maintains a connection with the reserved service(s), can be used. If a reservable service is used during the unreserved portion of the journey, the ticket will not be valid.

I agree with your interpretation of the FAQ, but disagree that this is consistent with the Terms of the ticket, where no mention is made of reservability. The Terms state "Tickets may only be used on the services of the Train Company (or geographic route where applicable) shown next to 'Route' on the ticket.", so in your example a customer with an AP SLOUGH ticket and reservation to Exeter could use only (and any) FGW any services from Exeter.

Where the ticket is routed '& Connections': The portion of the journey reserved on the services of the TOC named on the ticket must be made on the reserved service(s), but connecting services may be any services that have reasonable connections, that can be found on a travel itinerary (for example from NRES), to those TOC services.

I agree, although it only follows from the FAQ if one disregards "& Connections" tickets. Q25 includes mention of EC's exception from Stevenage which applies to "& Connections" tickets (I accept that this is slightly different as reservations will be issued for this leg).

I think this is about the best interpretation I can come up with that fits the T&Cs and the FAQs, though it may not be perfect.

An alternative interpretation would be that the FAQ, T&Cs and customer-oriented documentation are poorly written and contradictory.

 

[Goatboy]

I really think the 'services that are non-reservable' thing is, as far as the passenger is concerned, a red herring. I don't dispute the presence of this requirement in 'The Manual' but it is not available, anywhere, for any passenger to read in the normal course of buying a ticket and making the journey.

I also see no practical reason why such a rule would even be deemed neccesary. The Advance ticket will be supplied with compulsory reservations for the main train of the journey anyway - which is the part where it *is* important you remain on the booked train only.

I'll use my own example from last month where I was genuinelly confused before buying as to what train I could or couldn't use and sought advice.

I had an Advance ticket from the Westcountry to Hemel Hempstead which was routed FGW and Connections. I had a compulsory reservation into Paddington - this was the only train I could catch. I then made my way across London to Euston where I caught the next available service which called at Hemel. Some of these are reservable. Some of these are not. I cannot see either:

a) How an arriving passenger at Euston would be expected to disregard the departure boards, seek out a paper timetable or look a train up online, and then confirm if its possible to reserve a seat, then if it is, wait for a different train
b) Why that would even matter to a TOC anyway.

 

[Searle]

Are you saying that you also have a reservation from Waterloo to Bournemouth as part of the Advance ticket? i.e. two separate reservations?

Yep, two separate reservations, One for York - KGX for the 0700, and one for Waterloo - Bournemouth for the 1005

 

[Goatboy]

Yep, two separate reservations, One for York - KGX for the 0700, and one for Waterloo - Bournemouth for the 1005

I've had this with SWT too - no specific seat, its marked as XXX, but it lists the specific train. In cases like this then its clear that you may use only the booked trains.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.....I agree with your interpretation of the FAQ, but disagree that this is consistent with the Terms of the ticket, where no mention is made of reservability. The Terms state "Tickets may only be used on the services of the Train Company (or geographic route where applicable) shown next to 'Route' on the ticket.", so in your example a customer with an AP SLOUGH ticket and reservation to Exeter could use only (and any) FGW services from Exeter....

I think myself and many, many members of the forum have been down this road before and it ends with a long thread and no-one really agreeing (despite the obvious logic).

A ticket routed AP Slough could be used on any TOC that runs along the route as a TOC restriction is not shown on the ticket. However, in the event of a portion not being reserved, if the passenger used a reservable service it would be clear that they were not on the 'booked train' (because they don't have a reservation). I believe this is why the FAQs mention reservable and non-reservable services. This is not an issue with using a non-reservable service as there would be no reservation coupon for them.

.....I agree, although it only follows from the FAQ if one disregards "& Connections" tickets. Q25 includes mention of EC's exception from Stevenage which applies to "& Connections" tickets (I accept that this is slightly different as reservations will be issued for this leg)....

The question doesn't mention '& Connections' fares so you could argue that they are included and you could argue they are not, my thought is that, as the T&Cs suggest they might not be, that they are not. Some other questions are quite specific about '& Connections' tickets (Q23 and Q24 for example)

Q25 notes that tickets routed "AP London-Reading" would also be valid, illustrating that the EC exception is not just for '& Connections' tickets, but also geographically routed tickets.

.....An alternative interpretation would be that the FAQ, T&Cs and customer-oriented documentation are poorly written and contradictory.

Poorly written maybe, but not contradictory really, there is clearly an interpretation that can follow both the T&Cs and the FAQs as I have stated.

 

[LexyBoy]

I think myself and many, many members of the forum have been down this road before and it ends with a long thread and no-one really agreeing (despite the obvious logic).

A ticket routed AP Slough could be used on any TOC that runs along the route as a TOC restriction is not shown on the ticket.

Oops, I had in my mind FGW Only for some reason; you're quite correct that an AP Slough ticket has no TOC restrictions.

However, in the event of a portion not being reserved, if the passenger used a reservable service it would be clear that they were not on the 'booked train' (because they don't have a reservation). I believe this is why the FAQs mention reservable and non-reservable services. This is not an issue with using a non-reservable service as there would be no reservation coupon for them.

I think this is the debatable part which we won't reach consensus on. I'm not going to make any further comment.

 

[Zoe]

I had an Advance ticket from the Westcountry to Hemel Hempstead which was routed FGW and Connections.

I've also had an Advance ticket from the Westcountry to Hemel Hempstead but this was routed AP Slough. If it has changed to FGW & Connections then I'm not sure why I was issued with AP Slough. I believe the route has been "AP Slough" for some time as a I remember it back in the 1990s on Superadvance/Apex tickets. London Midland will issue reservation coupons between Euston and Hemel Hempstead (and so book you on a specific train) where the train is reservable. As discussed in another thread can significantly increase the cost of the ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Officially any non-reservable train can be used, i.e. all but the Norwich services.

I believe Greater Anglia will soon be offering advance fares to Clacton so these services would also be excluded from a ticket routed AP Slough unless a reservation coupon is issued?

 

[LexyBoy]

GREAT WESTN ONLY Advance fares show up in a check on fares for PAD-EXD, as an example.

I believe Greater Anglia will soon be offering advance fares to Clacton so these services would also be excluded from a ticket routed AP Slough unless a reservation coupon is issued?

According to the information in the manual, yes. It would make it more likely that you would get a reservation for this leg though I'd think, unless they're not issued as seems to be the case for some SWT connecting services (I assume the Clacton services would be train, rather than seat, reservations).

According to the information officially available to the public, the ticket would be valid on any connecting trains shown on a "valid itinerary", which would include any service out of LST.

 

[Zoe]

According to the information officially available to the public, the ticket would be valid on any connecting trains shown on a "valid itinerary", which would include any service out of LST.

But wouldn't you be issued with a reservation coupon if the itinerary was showing a reservable train?

 

[LexyBoy]

But wouldn't you be issued with a reservation coupon if the itinerary was showing a reservable train?

My interpretation as a passenger would be that a "valid travel itinerary" would be one provided by a source such as NRE. I wouldn't feel the need to overthink it - I'd expect to be able to travel on the trains shown, as long as I comply with the restrictions of the ticket I hold (i.e. travelling on those trains I hold reservations for).

 

[bb21]

We have been through this many times and I do not wish to repeat my opinions on this matter.

The best advice I can give is to speak to the guard prior to departure if you can. AFAIK I have never been refused permission to travel on a reservable service on the leg which I have no reservation for, and I am not aware of anyone experiencing difficulties either.