Advance tickets: breaks of journey on unspecified connecting services

[nitten_travell]

I stumbled across this site a while ago and found it to be most useful, not least as I live on the Borders line and got some very good value fares!

Playing around with VTEC website last autumn I found that I could get a very good Advance deal on a journey from Newcraighall to Hellifield via Barrow in Furness. Combined with a pretty good fare in the return direction but using WCML I plotted a day out on the Cumbria coast. Outbound details were:

Depart: Newcraighall dep. 06:15
Change at: Edinburgh arr. 06:25 dep. 06:52
Carlisle arr. 08:06 dep. 09:38
Carnforth arr. 13:02 dep. 13:58
Arrive: Hellifield, 14:44

with the restriction "Only valid on booked Virgin Trains West Coast services and required connecting services. Valid only on your chosen service. Not refundable. Changeable prior to date of travel for a fee."

What I actually did was take the 08:42 to Barrow in Furness and got off at Maryport. I made a day of it with further stops at Whitehaven, St Bees, Barrow and then got to Lancaster early evening where I picked up a TPE service back to Edinburgh.

Having read posts on this forum I now wonder if I was allowed to do this on an Advance ticket? At the time I thought that since there was only one specified train (the 06:52 from Edinburgh) and the rest was "plus connections" then provided I kept going towards Carnforth/Lancaster there would be no problem breaking the journey. Now I am not so sure.

None of the guards on the Cumbria Coast line questioned me when boarding at, say, St Bees. I only had two comments. One said "you're going from here [Carlisle] to Hellifield on this route? It'll take hours"'; a second, later in the day, simply said "you can change at Lancaster".

So: are breaks of journey allowed on connecting, unspecified services when holding an Advance ticket (i.e. was I allowed to do what I did?) or are breaks simply not allowed and the holder is expected to take the most efficient connecting route possible?

Advice would be appreciated as I've no wish to break the rules in future. I know I could easily do what I did on an open single. The fare I paid (Newcraighall-Hellifield for £12.50) was just too tempting to let pass and should I come across similar bargains they make for a good day out. As it happened it was a really nice day, even sunny with some warmth: St Bees was a delight!

 

[Romilly]

Breaks of journey are not allowed on Advances, but that raises the question what is meant by a "break of journey".

Condition 16 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage says:

you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than to:
(i) join a train at another station, or
(ii) stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s staff.

So if you never left any of the stations where you made your intermediate stops, you would not have broken your journey. And if you fall within exception (i), (ii) or (iii), even leaving a station will not count as a break of journey.

 

[nitten_travell]

I did indeed leave the stations. It looks like I was wrong to do so! I assumed that the restriction on not breaking the journey applied only to the VTWC Edinburgh-Carlisle part, not to the entire travel between the two stations listed on the ticket.

 

[robbeech]

I would think the simplest solution would be ask a member of staff for permission to leave the station?

I live in Whitwell (WWL) and regularly travel to London either via Nottingham or via Worksop and Retford. If I buy an advanced ticket for say the 1305 from NOT to STP but buy the ticket from WWL (same price) there is nothing on the ticket that says what train I need to get at Whitwell. Incidentally it's the 1147 that matches, but I see no reason why a non specific train (after all it's just a day single) would restrict you to the closest train to your connection.
After all, you can (on some sites) ask for extra time to make connections and this particular example would put you on the train before, but wouldn't print anything different on the ticket so I don't see how it can make a difference.

And for this reason I sometimes get the 0947 and have a couple of hours in Nottingham first. It's never been questioned, apart from one train guard who said "got a long wait in Nottingham" to which I explained my intentions and he said "good idea".

 

[Romilly]

I agree that there's no objection in principle, where the trains that connect into your reserved train are not specified, to getting an earlier connecting train (although some would say you can do that only if that earlier train is not itself a reservable train). But, unless acting on "instructions" from station staff as suggested, that strictly only gives you longer to enjoy the amenities of the station where you change trains.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Breaking your journey (except to change trains) is expressly forbidden at any intermediate station when using an Advance ticket, it's in the T&Cs that you agree to when you buy the ticket. There is nothing to say a Guard can't show discretion, but if they challenge it you might be in for an expensive lesson.

 

[gray1404]

What about in my situation at Stafford, I came off my first reserved train with LM from London with a 35 minute connection to my second reserved train with LM to Liverpool. I was on an Advance and used the 35 minutes to go to Tesco to get some milk. Was I in the wrong? I still travelled on both my reserved trains.

This may become hard though when Stafford gets gatelines, but I could ask permission. Although imagine being given permission but then being refused access back to the platform by someone else when arriving back at the station from Tesco.

 

[yorkie]

Yes without permission you are breaking the T&Cs , and in theory can be excessed.

In practice it is harmless, and the rail industry has agreed to instruct staff not to enforce these conditions. It would be simpler if they didn't impose them!

 

[najaB]

I was on an Advance and used the 35 minutes to go to Tesco to get some milk. Was I in the wrong? I still travelled on both my reserved trains.

Well, an Advance ticket only allows break of journey connectional purposes so I'd have to say that you were.

That said - no harm, no foul so I really doubt you would get in any bother over it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My personal experience is that short incidental breaks of journey like popping out of stations to the shops when changing trains are not enforced at all.

 

[nitten_travell]

Breaking your journey (except to change trains) is expressly forbidden at any intermediate station when using an Advance ticket

This the bit that I didn't know (and now do). I understood that the only condition was I needed to travel from end-to-end on the specific service listed on the ticket but could otherwise do as I pleased with the unreserved connecting services.

I now see that doing what I did (stopping off to have a look around - and eat - at Maryport, Whitehaven, St Bees and Barrow in Furness) was really not allowed and I should have continued on to Lancaster at the earliest opportunity once I arrived at Carlisle. Most of the stations on the Cumbria Coast line don't even have staff, let alone ticket barriers, to ask for permission to leave! In the case of Barrow I really did have to change trains and had enough time until the next service to Lancaster to walk up to Furness Abbey and back.

I can see why this condition is imposed on an Advance (a more expensive ticket exists allowing for breaks of journey). However, if no specific connecting services are printed on the ticket it sounds like a condition which is almost impossible to enforce.

One final question: is "change trains" defined somewhere? Does it refer to changing from service A to service B because service A does not go to your destination? Or could it simply refer to the physical act of getting off one train (on service A) and waiting for the next service A on the timetable, having never left the station?

 

[najaB]

One final question: is "change trains" defined somewhere? Does it refer to changing from service A to service B because service A does not go to your destination? Or could it simply refer to the physical act of getting off one train (on service A) and waiting for the next service A on the timetable, having never left the station?

According to the help pages on NRE:

Advance - Break of journey is not permitted on Advance ticket, unless you're advised to change trains on your reservation confirmation.

 

[reb0118]

Is somebody from Newtongrange on this thread?.......

 

[nitten_travell]

Is somebody from Newtongrange on this thread?.......

Guilty as charged.