Advance tickets. Why do so many ‘&Connections’ require a counted place

[bakerstreet]

For many years, possibly decades, only the main “intercity” TOC was ‘booked train only’ on an advance ticket.

Now, with the exception it seems of GTR, almost all journeys on “&Connections” tickets seem to require booked trains throughout.

Other than for the inconvenience of passengers, is there any logical, understandable, acceptable, reasonable reason for this?

(For the purposes of this thread, I am thinking a basic intercity journey, attached to a short commuter service of less than 20 -30 miles or so for the final section.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's because the commuter operations want to offer their own Advances, so offer reservations on their trains (counted places). If reservations are available on a train, for an Advance to be issued using that train in the itinerary a counted place has to be issued - that's how Advances work in general, whether &connections or otherwise.

 

[ainsworth74]

It's because the commuter operations want to offer their own Advances, so offer reservations on their trains (counted places). If reservations are available on a train, for an Advance to be issued using that train in the itinerary a counted place has to be issued - that's how Advances work in general, whether &connections or otherwise.

And that's because to do the above they have to hack the reservation system because it is, fundamentally, a heap of junk which couldn't cope with the idea of offering booked train only tickets without a reservation flag being available on the service. See the farce for many years of people being given seat reservation coupons which simply said "Coach * Seat *", it's related to that problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And that's because to do the above they have to hack the reservation system because it is, fundamentally, a heap of junk which couldn't cope with the idea of offering booked train only tickets without a reservation flag being available on the service. See the farce for many years of people being given seat reservation coupons which simply said "Coach * Seat *", it's related to that problem.

Agreed, counted places are an utter bodge - DB's system that provides for booked trains independent of seat reservations is far better (the train number appears in the route field).

 

[Class800]

When booking advances from Plumstead, I've never had a counted place between Plumstead and London Terminals. One person known to me once had a counted place between London Bridge and Waterloo East but no one cared as it's a turn up and go one stop service

 

[MrJeeves]

Now, with the exception it seems of GTR, almost all journeys on “&Connections” tickets seem to require booked trains throughout.

A large number of GTR's services are also reservable, and result in counted place reservations for long-distance advances

GTR has a hidden easement that allows travel on different connecting services to what's on the ticket in most situations, but the public aren't going to know about that!

Ignoring gateline staff if they're incorrect about ticket validity

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[JonathanH]

Now, with the exception it seems of GTR, almost all journeys on “&Connections” tickets seem to require booked trains throughout.

The exceptions are any trains that are not advertised with reservations available. Any service with reservations available will lead to a booked train being required.

 

[Class800]

The exceptions are any trains that are not advertised with reservations available. Any service with reservations available will lead to a booked train being required.

Is it only enforceable if it is printed on the ticket or reservation coupon? Quite often there's none except the main inter city train

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it only enforceable if it is printed on the ticket or reservation coupon? Quite often there's none except the main inter city train

Yes, correct, as you're not required to carry the itinerary, only the tickets, so there's no way to enforce what is done on the non-reserved leg because any inspector has no way of knowing what was booked (though if you do it such that you're leaving a huge gap which is obviously for a break of journey they might question it). However I don't think the itinerary on e-tickets differentiates between reserved counted place and unreserved trains so realistically if you want that flexibility you're going to want it fulfilling to paper. (This may vary between retailers, though, I don't know).

 

[MrJeeves]

However I don't think the itinerary on e-tickets differentiates between reserved counted place and unreserved trains so realistically if you want that flexibility you're going to want it fulfilling to paper. (This may vary between retailers, though, I don't know).

The itinerary will always show all legs of a booked journey for E-Tickets. This shouldn't be different on different retailers.

 

[Class800]

The itinerary will always show all legs of a booked journey for E-Tickets. This shouldn't be different on different retailers.

Correct - there is a potential advantage of using paper tickets for advances as a result of this. On paper tickets, not all legs are shown quite often, offering some additional flexibility.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Correct - there is a potential advantage of using paper tickets for advances as a result of this. On paper tickets, not all legs are shown quite often, offering some additional flexibility.

Or of course just use a site like Trainsplit that will allow you to change the various parameters of the search to give you the trains you wanted anyway. Given that break of journey is prohibited on Advances, delaying for a random break is probably not prudent anyway, and if you just want additional slack you want it regardless, as it's not just about risk of cancellation of the booked train, but also that it could sit in a field for 4 hours (not that I'm bitter about a recent SWR experience, of course! )

 

[yorksrob]

The system needs to be amended so that an IC journey won't produce a specific train reservation for the connecting services.

 

[JonathanH]

The system needs to be amended so that an IC journey won't produce a specific train reservation for the connecting services.

Why? The whole point of the reservations may be to manage capacity on connecting services. If the connecting service is busy, the operator may not want people using long distance advances on that service. This principle could happen on an integrated railway, not just in the system we have today.

Is it only enforceable if it is printed on the ticket or reservation coupon? Quite often there's none except the main inter city train

The discussion is about there being a reservation coupon for connecting services. For example, all Northern services are no reservable, while often WMR routes off their main London to Birmingham / Crewe / Liverpool services aren't. You therefore get the difference that someone using Northern for a connection sees enforceable reservation coupons, and someone using local WMR routes for a connection doesn't.

 

[yorksrob]

Why? The whole point of the reservations may be to manage capacity on connecting services.

Well no, it's a feature of the system that if a leg of the journey is reservable, it can't not book someone on the specific train as part of a longer advanced purchase fare.

This is more likely the result of Southern TOC's wanting to offer advanced purchase on some of their longer distance trains. This might be quite justifiable, however it's unjustifiable to restrict long distance travellers just because the computer system's a bit rubbish.

 

[northwichcat]

Or of course just use a site like Trainsplit that will allow you to change the various parameters of the search to give you the trains you wanted anyway. Given that break of journey is prohibited on Advances, delaying for a random break is probably not prudent anyway, and if you just want additional slack you want it regardless, as it's not just about risk of cancellation of the booked train, but also that it could sit in a field for 4 hours (not that I'm bitter about a recent SWR experience, of course! )

I find for Northwich to London if I select the approx 8:30 departure from Northwich it tries to put me on the final peak train from Stockport to Euston, but if I increase the connection time it puts me on the first off peak one. That can make a significant difference to the ticket cost.

You therefore get the difference that someone using Northern for a connection sees enforceable reservation coupons, and someone using local WMR routes for a connection doesn't.

And if the non-reservable operator cancels their connecting service but the reservable one operates their later connecting service, you have a valid ticket but no pretend seat reservation for it.

 

[Haywain]

I find for Northwich to London if I select the approx 8:30 departure from Northwich it tries to put me on the final peak train from Stockport to Euston, but if I increase the connection time it puts me on the first off peak one. That can make a significant difference to the ticket cost.

You should try a different online booking site. Trainsplit will offer multiple arrival times at Euston from the 08:28 from Northwich, and offers better options than most for customising the journey.

 

[Class800]

Usually just want a bit of slack, as being able to take the next train due to tube delays is a bit of a grey area and discussed at length on here over the years. Thankfully, the suburban London routes I use are not reservable

 

[ainsworth74]

Usually just want a bit of slack, as being able to take the next train due to tube delays is a bit of a grey area and discussed at length on here over the years. Thankfully, the suburban London routes I use are not reservable

It's only a grey area if you don't have a through ticket. If you had a Tunbridge Wells to York ticket which was LNER & Connections and were delayed on the Victoria line you'd be entitled to take the next LNER service to York no drama. Though I appreciate wanting some slack! Better to have smooth and easy journey than risk a tight connection and stress even if you'll be okay in the end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Usually just want a bit of slack, as being able to take the next train due to tube delays is a bit of a grey area and discussed at length on here over the years. Thankfully, the suburban London routes I use are not reservable

Same. For a long distance journey where I *really* don't want to miss the connection, I'll usually put in an hour to cross London (which is what it traditionally was in BR days when tickets generally weren't issued to itineraries). The better booking sites offer you the option to do this quite granularly, but I think most if not all will allow a simple "add N minutes for a change" option.

 

[Deerfold]

I find it annoying. If I want to connect at Leeds I may have as many as 4 trains within 30 minutes to get there. If I don't want to choose one in advance, I have to pay extra to buy a ticket on the day (and risk problems if there's already problems on the line on the day) for the one I want by the time I do that). I'd rather have more time at my connection station that the facility-less one I start at, but not be forced to get the earliest one. I've always been quite happy to be restricted to the long distance train. Many of my connecting trains are very quiet. It rarely costs more to travel on a busier one if bought as part of a combined ticket, but can if I have two separate advance tickets.

 

[cadder toad]

Apologies if OT but if I want to travel A-C and there is a cheap fare A-B and a further one B-C how do I book this?

I've found I can't enter A-C via B, that only gives no availability or more expensive fares. I can book A-B then B-C. But what do I do when booking that will allow me to get a later train BC if my AB train is delayed.

 

[MrJeeves]

Apologies if OT but if I want to travel A-C and there is a cheap fare A-B and a further one B-C how do I book this?

I've found I can't enter A-C via B, that only gives no availability or more expensive fares. I can book A-B then B-C. But what do I do when booking that will allow me to get a later train BC if my AB train is delayed.

Does the forum's site find the split? If not, could you provide an example journey showing the splits yourself?

 

[cadder toad]

Does the forum's site find the split? If not, could you provide an example journey showing the splits yourself?

St Pancras - Manchester Piccadilly - Glasgow. £33 for St P -Man and £19 for Man - Glasgow. I tried via Manchester as well as via Sheffield and Carlisle but I can't get a price of £52 (33+19)

 

[MrJeeves]

@cadder toad What date? Time? Railcards? What route from St Pancras to Manchester (I assume via Midland Mainline through Sheffield)?

 

[yorkie]

.... I'd rather have more time at my connection station that the facility-less one I start at, but not be forced to get the earliest one. ...

If you book with us, we allow additional interchange time to be added at any applicable interchange location of your choice.

Apologies if OT but if I want to travel A-C and there is a cheap fare A-B and a further one B-C how do I book this?

The forum's site should book this as a through journey automatically for you.

I've found I can't enter A-C via B, that only gives no availability or more expensive fares. I can book A-B then B-C.

Using which site? Our site should split it if that's cheaper.

But what do I do when booking that will allow me to get a later train BC if my AB train is delayed.

You can always get a later train if your connection is late, however if you want to minimise the risk of being delayed, we allow additional interchange time to be specified, under 'advanced options'.

 

[redreni]

Just to add my voice to those who want what we had before with "& connections" advances - flexibility on the local connections.

It's not about being able to choose a specific connection when booking. It's about being allowed, if it happens to be convenient, to make unofficial connections (including rapid connections that are below the MCT or connections that are only possible because of disruption). It's about covering yourself if you're unsure if people will want to have a beer near the origin station, or go straight to the station where we connect onto our long-distance train and have time for a beer or two there.

Perhaps there's an argument that this sort of flexibility was being given away previously and that if people want flexibility they should buy it. I have some sympathy with that, except I generally only need (and am only prepared to pay) for flexibility on the connections, not on the main rump of the journey.

Occasionally you get lucky and a suitable combination of advances and flexible tickets is offered on a single itinerary, but you only get offered that if it's the cheapest option overall for that itinerary. I would really value an advanced journey planner option that would allow me to specify that I want the cheapest combination of tickets overall, subject to the constraint that I am only happy to accept advances between two points I specify along the route and I want flexible tickets covering, at minimum, the rest of the journey.

Could this possibly be done using the via/avoid options? I.e. once you've specified your via points, the journey planner then allows you to choose between "flexible" or "fixed time" for each bit of the journey (e.g. flexible from the origin to the first via point, fixed time from the first via point to the second via point, flexible from the second via point to the destination)?

 

[yorkie]

... I.e. once you've specified your via points, the journey planner then allows you to choose between "flexible" or "fixed time" for each bit of the journey (e.g. flexible from the origin to the first via point, fixed time from the first via point to the second via point, flexible from the second via point to the destination)?

Good luck to anyone attempting to create a journey planner that does all that!

You will unfortunately just have to add each leg to your basket individually, as was the case back in the days before automated splitting sites.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good luck to anyone attempting to create a journey planner that does all that!

A few of the European sales sites did that sort of thing because you typically needed to ticket each train separately and each would have separate T&Cs. I think Loco2 did, so Trainline probably does as it took that over. Not for the UK though.

 

[cadder toad]

@cadder toad What date? Time? Railcards? What route from St Pancras to Manchester (I assume via Midland Mainline through Sheffield)?

I was looking at a single fare for one person, afternoon of 7 July, no railcard. I can now get almost the same fare in one booking, so ignore my question. Not sure what I've done differently - but thanks for your prompt responses