adverse possesion of railway land

[34D]

Hello, in respect of land owned by BRB Residuary Ltd or by Network Rail, does a limitation period of 12 years or of 30 years apply, please?

Refer to section 4 of the Land Registry guide to Adverse Possession to see the definitions they use.

The reason for my question is encroachment on the trackbed of a (lifted) closed railway line.

 

[DarloRich]

Do you mean limitation in submitting a claim FOR adverse possession or a limitation in REBUTTING an adverse possession claim?

Is the land registered with the land registry or unregistered land?

 

[michael769]

It will depend on the overall history or the land in question and also the history of any owners and/or occupiers.

This is a very complex area of law and if the standard 12 year limit cannot be met individualized advice from a specialist solicitor in commercial property law should be sought.

 

[34D]

Do you mean limitation in submitting a claim FOR adverse possession or a limitation in REBUTTING an adverse possession claim?

Is the land registered with the land registry or unregistered land?

Unregistered - and I would like to get the encroachment to what I believe is a footpath/right of way removed.

 

[DarloRich]

Do you own the land that is subject to the adverse possession? IF you don’t own the land I would officially contact the owner and tell them. It is up to them to defend their title.

 

[merlodlliw]

Unregistered - and I would like to get the encroachment to what I believe is a footpath/right of way removed.

I have some experience of this area.


1.The local County Council or similar have full time footpath inspectors, visit them and ask to see the maps of the area, all official footpaths have numbers whether the land is registered or not.This will cost you nothing plus free advice.
2.If it is permissive, the landowner? can remove the footpath at any time with due notice.

The problem with unregistered land is, anyone can put a path or right of way on it with the land registry, then it is at your expense to prove they do not have this right.Even though you own the land, the Land registry wont take sides.

If you pm me as to where you live,I will put you in touch with the correct person at your Council, this is most cost effective.

Finally is there any sign age on the land.


Bob

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Rights of Way and contested Land ownership is indeed a complex area and the principles are not uniform across the UK. You will need to identify, at the very least, in which nation the path is sited.

 

[jopsuk]

If you're even using the term "Right of Way" then you're not talking about Scotland...

 

[michael769]

If you're even using the term "Right of Way" then you're not talking about Scotland...

Scotland does have Rights of Way, but the concept is a relatively recent addition compared to England - the implementation is also significantly different.

 

[Prairie_5542]

Hello, in respect of land owned by BRB Residuary Ltd or by Network Rail, does a limitation period of 12 years or of 30 years apply, please?

Refer to section 4 of the Land Registry guide to Adverse Possession to see the definitions they use.

The reason for my question is encroachment on the trackbed of a (lifted) closed railway line.

Isn't the BRB being dissolved at the end of the year?

 

[DarloRich]

Isn't the BRB being dissolved at the end of the year?

It makes no difference. They and their successors still need to defend their title from an adverse possession claim

 

[34D]

I have some experience of this area.


1.The local County Council or similar have full time footpath inspectors, visit them and ask to see the maps of the area, all official footpaths have numbers whether the land is registered or not.This will cost you nothing plus free advice.
2.If it is permissive, the landowner? can remove the footpath at any time with due notice.

The problem with unregistered land is, anyone can put a path or right of way on it with the land registry, then it is at your expense to prove they do not have this right.Even though you own the land, the Land registry wont take sides.

If you pm me as to where you live,I will put you in touch with the correct person at your Council, this is most cost effective.

Finally is there any sign age on the land.


Bob

PM sent, thank you Bob.

Isn't the BRB being dissolved at the end of the year?

Oh, I didn't know this. To whom will their interest (and responsibility) in respect of disused railway lines be transferred?

 

[Greenback]

One of the thigns that Land Registry will be intereste din if anyone wants to claim adverse possession over a piece of unregistered land is whether the land is occupied to the exclusion of others, including the rightful owner. As the term implies, adverse possession doe sinvolve an element of possessing the land in question!

Basically, what normally happens is the person or body who is in possession of the land will make an application for First Registration based on their occupation of the land. Land Registry will firstly check that the application is in order and that the following criteria have been met:

the squatter has factual possession of the land

the squatter has the necessary intention to possess the land

the squatter’s possession is without the owner’s consent, and

all of the above have been true of the squatter and any predecessors through whom the squatter claims for at least 12 years prior to the date of the application (see section 4 The limitation period).

Source http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/professional/guides/practice-guide-5

If it appears from the application that these requirements have been met, they will usually arrange for a survey to take place to establish the facts of the matter on the ground.

Should the inspection confirm the facts, Land Registry will seek to serve notice on the rightful owner of the land. Ultimately, issues of ownership may have to be decided by teh Adjudicator to HM Land Registry or by a court. As merlodlliw has said, Land Registry will nott ake sides or decide on disputes itself.

I think the biggest issue here is whether the land in question is being occupied or possessed to a sufficient degree to justify an adverse possession claim on it. If it is merely being marked as a footpath then this suggests t me it has not.

In addition, as others have remarked, it is up to the owner to defend their paper title. A member of the public is not able to do much via the route of land registration unless they can demonstrate a clear legal interest in the land.

As far as the Limitation Period goes, however, as far as I can remember railway land does not fall into any of the special categories of exemption, though I look forward to being corrected if my memory has let me down!

 

[34D]

I think the biggest issue here is whether the land in question is being occupied or possessed to a sufficient degree to justify an adverse possession claim on it. If it is merely being marked as a footpath then this suggests t me it has not.

Well, yes and no. The point is that someone has completely blocked a footpath (by erecting a fence to extend their garden) and unless something is done about it they will be able to be granted title in due course

 

[Greenback]

Well, yes and no. The point is that someone has completely blocked a footpath (by erecting a fence to extend their garden) and unless something is done about it they will be able to be granted title in due course

Ah, I see. I must have misunderstood. Although I have reservations over the use of the word 'will', as Adverse possession is a very complex matter of land law, whoever has done this appears to be on the way to making a claim over the land.

The enxt question is, who is the rightful owner? A search through Land Registry may indicate that the land has been transferred recently and registered, which makes it more difficult for a claim of adverse possession to succeed. If you know, or can find out who owns the footpath, you can at least contact them and ask them to arrange for the blockage/fencing to be removed from their land.

 

[Ediswan]

This is how I understand it (I could be wrong):

When it comes to rights of way, once established, they exist, subsequent change of ownership of the land makes no difference, however achieved. They *can* be removed, but not that way.

If I have it right, BRB Residuary is the unwanted scaps of BR, which was made from the Big Four, which was made from a multitude of private rail companies. None of these allowed a general public right of way across their land. So not useful here.

If you believe a public right of way has been established and is now being obstructed, contact the rights of way people (they usually are real people) in your local authorithy.

If you care to provide the location, I do have the time to track down who that is.

There again, some commonly used paths are not actually rights of way, so it makes no difference who is obstructing the way.

Rather like the 'best ticket' questions, hard to say without the details.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If it appears from the application that these requirements have been met, Land Registry will usually arrange for a survey to take place to establish the facts of the matter on the ground. Should the inspection confirm the facts, Land Registry will seek to serve notice on the rightful owner of the land. Ultimately, issues of ownership may have to be decided by the Adjudicator to HM Land Registry or by a court. As merlodlliw has said, Land Registry will not take sides or decide on disputes itself.

Are there substantial commercially-charged costs by Land Registry to applicants for such detailed surveys to be effected ?

 

[34D]

There again, some commonly used paths are not actually rights of way, so it makes no difference who is obstructing the way.

I was told yesterday (by the rights of way team at the relevant council) that 20 years use of a path is sufficient to establish it, in general.

Please forgive me for not providing precise details - it is primarily to protect my own safety for when someone finds out that the authorities are (hopefully) going to take back half of their garden and substantially devalue their home.

Are there substantial commercially-charged costs by Land Registry to applicants for such detailed surveys to be effected ?

Not at all. £40 if I follow the PDF correctly.

 

[merlodlliw]

I was told yesterday (by the rights of way team at the relevant council) that 20 years use of a path is sufficient to establish it, in general.

Please forgive me for not providing precise details - it is primarily to protect my own safety for when someone finds out that the authorities are (hopefully) going to take back half of their garden and substantially devalue their home.



Not at all. £40 if I follow the PDF correctly.

I agree,some will get very naughty if land is taken away,let the statutory authority get involved, as for costs of land registry the more detailed you want it, the higher the cost, I pay between £12 & £20 for simple searches.
Leeds City Council (if its the same as Wrexham/Flints CC) have the search facility in house with Land Registry, you have paid for this with your rates.

One other quick search you can make is,pop down to a well known book shop & have a look at the local OS map(higher scale the better), this will show up any footpath that are public R O W, if so it will have a number.
Leeds City Council Libraries will also have this OS map facility,Wrexham CC also have maps going back over a century in the reference section , I think in England & Wales,the local Councils revisited all public footpaths & registered them.

My wife says you have gone down the correct avenue, involve Rights Of Way on your behalf, give them all details & Photos, have a look at OS maps,see what ROW is listed on them,but get( or graze) the most current edition, OS reprint on an annual basis.


Bob

 

[Trog]

Delete duplicates something earlier I had missed.

 

[michael769]

Well, yes and no. The point is that someone has completely blocked a footpath (by erecting a fence to extend their garden) and unless something is done about it they will be able to be granted title in due course

In this case an extra option is to file a complaint with the local planning department. Fencing off public open space or a footpath to become part of a garden requires planning permission for change of use.

As it is improbable that the council would grant planning permission where a public footpath is affected it is reasonable to assume that they will not have the requisite permission and this means that the council's planning officer may be able to issue an enforcement notice to force them to remove the fence.

This should be done in addition to pursuing it via the land registry.

 

[merlodlliw]

In this case an extra option is to file a complaint with the local planning department. Fencing off public open space or a footpath to become part of a garden requires planning permission for change of use.

As it is improbable that the council would grant planning permission where a public footpath is affected it is reasonable to assume that they will not have the requisite permission and this means that the council's planning officer may be able to issue an enforcement notice to force them to remove the fence.

This should be done in addition to pursuing it via the land registry.

If you complain to Council planning, you have to declare yourself,the third party will have a right to see the complaint which must be in writing to stop frivolous complaints, footpaths are better left to the rights of way, who then can inform planning of the breach, if one exists, if it does the Council will give 28 days notice for its removal, before any prosecution

 

[DarloRich]

I am unsure now if the thread is about the establishment of a right of way, the obstruction of a right of way, an adverse possession claim or the rebutting of an adverse possession claim!. Can some one clarify?

 

[michael769]

I am unsure now if the thread is about the establishment of a right of way, the obstruction of a right of way, an adverse possession claim or the rebutting of an adverse possession claim!. Can some one clarify?

My understanding is that the OP is aggrieved by a householder who has fenced off a footpath following the line of a dismantled railway and wishes to obtain advice on how to get then situation remedied.

 

[DarloRich]

My understanding is that the OP is aggrieved by a householder who has fenced off a footpath following the line of a dismantled railway and wishes to obtain advice on how to get then situation remedied.

thanks!

Contact the local authority if the footpath is blocked. I have had dealings with various councils on similar matters regarding rights of way and have found them to be diligent and conscientious, if a little over worked. There will often be one person for a council region.

Contact BRB and/or Network Rail Community relations team if you feel the land has been claimed adversely. http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/3473.aspx and http://www.brbr.co.uk/email

The land owner should seek to redress the problem as soon as they become aware of the "squatter" however it may take legal action to actually remove the "squatter"!

 

[Greenback]

This is how I understand it (I could be wrong):

When it comes to rights of way, once established, they exist, subsequent change of ownership of the land makes no difference, however achieved. They *can* be removed, but not that way.

There are several ways for a RoW to become established, we have no way of knowing if it has in this case.

If I have it right, BRB Residuary is the unwanted scaps of BR, which was made from the Big Four, which was made from a multitude of private rail companies. None of these allowed a general public right of way across their land. So not useful here.

I imagine that the land can only have been used as a RoW since the rialway was pulled up.

If you believe a public right of way has been established and is now being obstructed, contact the rights of way people (they usually are real people) in your local authorithy.

This will require a willingness to become involved directly with the squatters, and possibly the courts. I would guess that the council will be required to divulge the personal details of whoever has made the complaint.

There again, some commonly used paths are not actually rights of way, so it makes no difference who is obstructing the way.

Rather like the 'best ticket' questions, hard to say without the details.

Indeed!

Are there substantial commercially-charged costs by Land Registry to applicants for such detailed surveys to be effected ?

The Land Registry fee bears no resemblance to the actual costs of carrying out the survey. It has been £40 for many years.

I agree,some will get very naughty if land is taken away,let the statutory authority get involved, as for costs of land registry the more detailed you want it, the higher the cost, I pay between £12 & £20 for simple searches.

Is that online Bob? I have lost track of how much official copies of the register and title plan are electronically!

Contact BRB and/or Network Rail Community relations team if you feel the land has been claimed adversely. http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/3473.aspx and http://www.brbr.co.uk/email

The OP could do that, but there is the possibility that BRB and NR aren;t interested, that they do not now own the land, and they may even have sold it to the 'squatter'!

The land owner should seek to redress the problem as soon as they become aware of the "squatter" however it may take legal action to actually remove the "squatter"!

Yes, and this can cost a fair bit of money for the landowner, which may be a factor in some owners not bothering to contest small pieces of land which have been adversely possessed by others.

Ultimately, the OP can approach the matter in two ways. They can try and get the owner to defend their title, or they can try and protect any right of way they feel they have over the land in question. There is no guarantee that either route will be successful, or straightforward.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

The county councils can tell, you if the land is on the definitive ROW map.
The council will then enforce its reopening. Local up to date maps usually have them marked.
To gain control or squatters rights, someone has to fence the land to exclude others, especially its owner/s, for 15/20 years.
If the land is not on the definitive map, it should be possible to persuade the council to register it.
Not an easy task -
You have to find several people who have walked that path for around 20 years, and prove it has been 'open' every day. (A land owner can close it for 1 day a year, and it would then be a permissive path.)
Today people keep moving around the country etc!!
You can establish a private ROW, say it is very next /close to you, for those using your property, again it is 12 to 15 years. You, and/or previous owners swear to have used it openly daily.
With certain properties, Land Registry may tell you on the phone who owns the land, with no charge.

 

[Greenback]

Land Registry staff should, most definitely, not be providing ownership details over the phone, with or without charge!

 

[Ediswan]

Please forgive me for not providing precise detais ...

Understood.

If a right of way already exists, what you need is the 'definitive map', which is held by the local authority (usually county but I can't be sure that always applies). So do a search for "<county> rights of way definitive map".

If you are lucky, the map will be online. Some areas are, some are not. If not, you can view the definitive map in person at the right office. Chances are that even if the map is not online, that office will be stated. If not stated, phone up and ask.

Strictly, turning up in person is more reliable as the map will be more up to date.

If the definitive map does show a right of way, in theory the local authority will enforce it, but they may need to be 'reminded' of their obligation.

As far as as I can tell, there should be no charge to see the definitive map.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

(A land owner can close it for 1 day a year, and it would then be a permissive path.)

I admit this is off topic. My late father noted that a local landowner did exactly this, in the days when everybody walked to church every week.

The path would be closed once a year, always on a Sunday, thus forcing the affected parishoners to walk the longer route to church. If they then claimed never to have noticed the closure over 20 years, the vicar would be the person asking the questions.

 

[DarloRich]

Land Registry staff should, most definitely, not be providing ownership details over the phone, with or without charge!

But you can obtain ownership details of (almost) any registered property by applying to the land registry via this web site:

http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/public/faqs/how-can-i-get-a-copy-of-a-title-register-andor-title-plan

and paying the correct fee