Advice during disruption to Grand Central services

[Starmill]

This afternoon both 1653 and 1822 London KX to Sunderland Grand Central (GC) services are cancelled.

According to GC, customers should purchase new tickets in order to complete their journeys:



Transcription:

Grand Central by Arriva

16:53 London Kings Cross to Sunderland will be cancelled.

Passengers will be required to purchase additional tickets to complete their journeys using LNER services and connections, please then send details and a copy of ticket(s) to [email protected] for reimbursement. If you require assistance, please speak to the Grand Central reps at London Kings Cross.

In my view train companies should not use solely text contained within images to provide service updates.

 

[grid56126]

Does anybody know where this sits with consumer law etc? There must be plenty of people who would be unable to simply buy a new ticket who would then be denied travel. Am I being over dramatic?

 

[Crossover]

I think the method of updating the public on these matters, whilst not good, is secondary to this specific issue. I can well imagine there are people who simply can not afford to have a large amount of money taken between buying another ticket and it being refunded in what would be an indeterminable time period (presuming GC don’t get awkward over refunds thereafter)

I think shambolic and farcical would be understating this situation!

 

[gazthomas]

Open access operators - just like low cost airlines, you wouldn't expect Easyjet to come to the rescue of Ryanair

 

[PermitToTravel]

That is comically bad

 

[Crossover]

Open access operators - just like low cost airlines, you wouldn't expect Easyjet to come to the rescue of Ryanair

Maybe so but Grand Central should be taking a more active role in this rather than effectively washing their hands of it and leaving customers to sort themselves out (and presumably putting other staff in the firing line)

Even if that means getting some buses or getting a GC representative to Kings Cross with a company card to buy customers the relevant tickets

 

[PermitToTravel]

What's the point of doing it this way instead?

The hope that some people won't bother?
The intention of only refunding the GC ticket, rather than the EC one, in the hope that some people won't challenge this?
The intention of "losing" some emails in the post?

 

[Starmill]

Open access operators - just like low cost airlines, you wouldn't expect Easyjet to come to the rescue of Ryanair

Oh, I didn't realise Ryanair asked customers to purchase Easyjet flights when they have cancellations. Do you have a source for this?

 

[gazthomas]

Oh, I didn't realise Ryanair asked customers to purchase Easyjet flights when they have cancellations. Do you have a source for this?

They don't, my point was about there being no fallback on budget airlines

 

[lyndhurst25]

Why can't Grand Central just arrange acceptance of tickets for these two services for use on LNER trains, with the two companies settling the bill between themselves afterwards? That way passengers are minimally inconvenienced. Nobody should be forced to fork out for a new ticket. Another example fragmented railway industry failing to work together for the passenger.

 

[Crossover]

I don’t think comparisons can be drawn to the airline industry. Open access does not equal budget!

 

[Crossover]

Why can't Grand Central just arrange acceptance of tickets for these two services for use on LNER trains, with the two companies settling the bill between themselves afterwards? That way passengers are minimally inconvenienced. Nobody should be forced to fork out for a new ticket. Another example fragmented railway industry failing to work together for the passenger.

At a guess LNER have told GC to Foxtrot Oscar

 

[Crossover]

They don't, my point was about there being no fallback on budget airlines

If an airline, budget or otherwise, cancelled their own flight, would they tell passengers to buy a new ticket for elsewhere or would they make alternative arrangements for passengers (not necessarily at no cost if it meant the customer needing to buy more refreshments or such in the interim but at reduced cost)

 

[221129]

Why can't Grand Central just arrange acceptance of tickets for these two services for use on LNER trains, with the two companies settling the bill between themselves afterwards? That way passengers are minimally inconvenienced. Nobody should be forced to fork out for a new ticket. Another example fragmented railway industry failing to work together for the passenger.

Because LNER have refused due to also being extremely busy with their own passengers.

 

[Starmill]

They don't, my point was about there being no fallback on budget airlines

Ah right. So how is this relevant? I don't follow.

 

[maniacmartin]

Grand Central tickets under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, which states (bold emphasis mine):

28.2. Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary provide overnight accommodation for you.

28.3. In other circumstances disruption to train services may mean that you are entitled to compensation or a refund on your Ticket. Part F explains your rights to refunds and compensation.

Part F specifically covers refunds on unsued tickets, if the passenger chooses not to travel. As such, space permitting, I can see no valid reason for LNER not to convey the passengers, and then chase GC afterwards for the money. Charging passengers extra and making them claim it back is unacceptable.

Comparisons to budget airlines are not relevant, as unlike 'full service' airlines, budget airlines don't participate in the airline equivalent of ORCATS, nor issue tickets within a framework such as the NRCoT which obligates other providers to come to the aid of passengers when things go wrong.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Because LNER have refused due to also being extremely busy with their own passengers.

Then GC's advice to travel by LNER is useless if all the LNER trains are full to capacity. They need to be arranging coaches/taxis/hotels/a relief train. Perhaps then they will be asking passengers to pay the taxi drivers and claim back the fare?!

 

[Randomer]

Err budget airlines operate under the same EU wide rules as non budget ones. To take a look at regulations as promulgated by the commission (very long read hence the spoiler):

Spoiler: EU Air Passenger Rights Regulations

Reimbursement, re-routing or rebooking in the event of cancellation
The airline must offer you, on a one off basis, a choice between:

1. the reimbursement of your ticket and, if you have a connecting flight, a return flight to the airport of departure at the earliest opportunity
2. re-routing to your final destination at the earliest opportunity or,
3. re-routing at a later date at your convenience under comparable transport conditions, subject to the availability of seats.

As soon as you have chosen one of these three options, you no longer have rights in relation to the other two options. However, the airline may still have to provide compensation depending on the distance of your flight and the length of the delay past your original planned arrival time.

• If the airline does not comply with its obligation to offer re-routing or return under comparable transport conditions at the earliest opportunity, it has to reimburse your flight costs.
• If the airline does not offer you the choice between reimbursement and re-routing but decides unilaterally to reimburse your original ticket, you are entitled to an additional reimbursement of the price difference with the new ticket (under comparable transport conditions).
• If you booked an outbound and a return flight separately with different airlines and the outbound flight is cancelled, reimbursement is only due for the cancelled flight.

If the outbound and return flights are operated by different airlines, but were part of a single reservation, in the event that the outbound flight was cancelled, you have the following rights:

You should be re-routed at the earliest opportunity (the equivalent of arranging ticket acceptance from my point of view).

In many ways air travel is far more regulated than rail travel and the regulations hold for the whole of the EU.

Ryanair tried to get away with not following the rules and ended up following them after action by the commission.

Back on topic, the fragmentation of the railways following privatisation has ended up with different operators being more or less willing to take on the burden of another operator having issues. Does the DFT or RDG publish any rules on this in the public domain?

 

[Hadders]

Shocking behaviour frm Grand Central. Passengers should not have to pay extra and claim back.

LNER trains being full is a red herring as displaced passengers have no choice but to use them (and face the additional inconvenience of having to purchase an additional ticket and claim back).

I assume this reduced GC's liability for delay compensation?

 

[maniacmartin]

As far as I am aware , in the case of airlines, the responsibility for arranging that falls solely on the airline the passenger holds a ticket for though.

Then GC's advice to travel by LNER is useless if all the LNER trains are full to capacity. They need to be arranging coaches/taxis/hotels/a relief train. Perhaps then they will be asking passengers to pay the taxi drivers and claim back the fare?!

I agree.

 

[lyndhurst25]

To put this into context, the walkup single fare to travel this evening from Kings Cross to Sunderland by LNER is £136.40 for a single!

 

[Starmill]

Even with no disruption most LNER trains are full and standing on Sunday afternoons. It's not a surprise that they cannot physically accommodate the GC customers. However, if a customer buys a new ticket then they will equally struggle to fit on some LNER services - or be required to stand for many hours.

 

[attics26]

Grand Central tickets under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, which states (bold emphasis mine):



Part F specifically covers refunds on unsued tickets, if the passenger chooses not to travel. As such, space permitting, I can see no valid reason for LNER not to convey the passengers, and then chase GC afterwards for the money. Charging passengers extra and making them claim it back is unacceptable.

Comparisons to budget airlines are not relevant, as unlike 'full service' airlines, budget airlines don't participate in the airline equivalent of ORCATS, nor issue tickets within a framework such as the NRCoT which obligates other providers to come to the aid of passengers when things go wrong.

LNER already conveyed GC passengers from the first 2 ex Sunderland, and the 3rd after it only got as far as York, in addition to the first 3 to and from Bradford and 1 from Halifax, obviously since I finished work at 1415 the situation hasn't improved, there has to be a limit to the amount of help a Toc can give to a rival who at the moment cannot run any sort of service. All this by the way due to aircon problems, guess what overloading every LNER service causes!

 

[ASharpe]

LNER trains being full is a red herring as displaced passengers have no choice but to use them (and face the additional inconvenience of having to purchase an additional ticket and claim back).

GC are probably hoping some passengers going north will simply abandon their journeys and get a refund of the ticket the paid for and not have to be conveyed back down south and further increasing liability. I know I'd cancel a business trip if I was faced with that.

 

[Bayum]

Shocking behaviour frm Grand Central. Passengers should not have to pay extra and claim back.

LNER trains being full is a red herring as displaced passengers have no choice but to use them (and face the additional inconvenience of having to purchase an additional ticket and claim back).

I assume this reduced GC's liability for delay compensation?

I'm not certain that LNER trains being full is a 'red herring'. Continued disruption on the southern ECML due to Great Northern + Thameslink problems, it being a nice day on a weekend etc etc. LNER have every right to be under the impression that trains are going to be busy. Granted, they may not be full, but they may already be saturated to uncomfortable levels carrying just their own. Adding another set of passengers to this is going to increase the number onboard more.

 

[IanXC]

Grand Central tickets under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, which states (bold emphasis mine):



Part F specifically covers refunds on unsued tickets, if the passenger chooses not to travel. As such, space permitting, I can see no valid reason for LNER not to convey the passengers, and then chase GC afterwards for the money. Charging passengers extra and making them claim it back is unacceptable.

Comparisons to budget airlines are not relevant, as unlike 'full service' airlines, budget airlines don't participate in the airline equivalent of ORCATS, nor issue tickets within a framework such as the NRCoT which obligates other providers to come to the aid of passengers when things go wrong.

I'm not sure that LNER are definitely in the wrong here.

any Train Company will, where it reasonably can

If they already expect their services to be full and standing, can they 'reasonably' assist?

The other issue here is whether 'disruption' includes the TOC not having a serviceable train available at the start of the journey. Arguably 'disruption' is more about infrastructure or train running issues which prevent the service from running.

 

[Merseysider]

I’m sure this will lose them custom! It’s certainly put me off even considering using them in the near future.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The other issue here is whether 'disruption' includes the TOC not having a serviceable train available at the start of the journey. Arguably 'disruption' is more about infrastructure or train running issues which prevent the service from running.

I think your other arguments are very true - however I think this one may be considered rather tenuous: to say that a cancelled train (for whatever reason!) on which you were due to travel does not constitute disruption to your journey is certainly a stretch of the definition of 'disruption' IMO!

 

[Starmill]

It's surprising that GC chose this course of action, but, to my mind, it's even more of a shock that they chose use these words:

Passengers will be required to purchase additional tickets

Particularly to describe it as a "requirement" rather than a request, which makes it very obvious that they are in breach of their contract.

 

[greatkingrat]

I'm not sure that LNER are definitely in the wrong here.

If they already expect their services to be full and standing, can they 'reasonably' assist?

But that isn't what they are saying. If GC passengers pay another £100 for a new ticket it sounds like LNER are more than happy to carry them regardless of how busy the trains may or may not be.