Advice on excess Glasgow / Edinburgh to Manchester/Liverpool

[eastend43]

Hi all - I tried to work this one out myself but got stuck.

I have a Liverpool to Glasgow Off Peak Return (£74.10) and I am currently using the OUT part of it to get to Glasgow. Tomorrow I need to go to Edinburgh and will be staying overnight there. I had originally planned to be going back to Liverpool on Friday or Saturday and would probably have went back to Glasgow first and used the RETURN part of the ticket I hold.

I know that a Liverpool to Edinburgh return is valid via Glasgow, but the Break of Journey restriction meant (I think) that I couldn't use such a ticket for my planned travel.

Now I need to get to Manchester on Friday morning, so will need to get the 5.30am train from Edinburgh to Manchester. I wondered if I could excess my ticket into a Liverpool to Edinburgh ticket and tried to do that at Liverpool Lime Street before I started my journey, but didn't get very far with that. Although the guy behind the counter was trying to be helpful, he made a few suggestions that didn't seem right (or I didn't understand) and eventually he suggested that it would easier for me to sort it out in Glasgow or Edinburgh.

At first he suggested that it would be easier to just get an Edinburgh to Haymarket single as, in combination with my existing ticket, that would cover me for the whole journey. He later realised that he was getting confused between Haymarket and Lockerbie.

He then looked up the fares for Edinburgh to Lockerbie, and I think the single would be about £17, but since he was onlly looking for trains from Edinburgh that stopped in Lockerbie the first one he could find was after 9am.

It was then, when I suggested that an excess would be cheaper, that he suggested I would be better sorting it out in Scotland. I asked him whether it mattered that I would be doing that after my outward journey started and he said that it didn't.

So, can I actually get an excess that would cover me for returning from Edinburgh to Liverpool via Manchester? I know that via Manchester is a valid route from Glasgow or Edinburgh to Liverpool.

Can I do that in Glasgow this evening or tomorrow? I don't really fancy trying to do it in Edinburgh at 5am on Friday.

What is the appropriate excess? I think Liverpool to Edinburgh return is only about £3 more than the Liverpool to Glasgow return.

I know that I shouldn't break my journey (and in some ways this question is academic as I'm already using the the outward part of the return) but with a Liverpool to Edinburgh ticket would I have been allowed to stop short in Glasgow tonight, buying a Glasgow to Edinburgh ticket for tomorrow? Since the route from Liverpool to Edinburgh involves changing stations in Glagow I can't imagine that I would be caught stopping short if it wasn't allowed.

If I can't get an excess, would I be allowed to use an Edinburgh to Lockerbie ticket in combination with my Glasgow to Liverpool return ticket to allow me to get from Edinburgh to Liverpool via Manchester. I know that the answer is yes if the train stops in Lockerbie, but the train I want doesn't. It's not as if I am trying to use split tickets to get a cheaper journey. Buying an Edinburgh to Carlisle 'walk up' ticket is pretty expensive, but there is an advance for £22 I could get if an excess isn't possible.

Sorry this has been long-winded.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....So, can I actually get an excess that would cover me for returning from Edinburgh to Liverpool via Manchester? I know that via Manchester is a valid route from Glasgow or Edinburgh to Liverpool....

I would say no in this case, not an excess fare. The options would be Over-Riding (travelling beyond the destination), which would require travel via Glasgow in both directions, or Off-Route, which I think would not be worthwhile.

....Can I do that in Glasgow this evening or tomorrow? I don't really fancy trying to do it in Edinburgh at 5am on Friday....

By the rulebook, you cannot get an Over-Riding (Over-distance) excess after leaving Liverpool (not even on the train). Off-Route you could, but as I say, I don't think it would be worth your while.

....What is the appropriate excess? I think Liverpool to Edinburgh return is only about £3 more than the Liverpool to Glasgow return....

The Off-Route excess fare will probably just be a return or two single to cover a journey from Glasgow to Edinburgh to a point where your Glasgow-Liverpool ticket becomes valid (probably Carlisle).

....I know that I shouldn't break my journey (and in some ways this question is academic as I'm already using the the outward part of the return) but with a Liverpool to Edinburgh ticket would I have been allowed to stop short in Glasgow tonight, buying a Glasgow to Edinburgh ticket for tomorrow?....

Officially? No it would not be allowed, but whether it would have been noticed is an entirely different question.

....If I can't get an excess, would I be allowed to use an Edinburgh to Lockerbie ticket in combination with my Glasgow to Liverpool return ticket to allow me to get from Edinburgh to Liverpool via Manchester. I know that the answer is yes if the train stops in Lockerbie, but the train I want doesn't. It's not as if I am trying to use split tickets to get a cheaper journey. Buying an Edinburgh to Carlisle 'walk up' ticket is pretty expensive, but there is an advance for £22 I could get if an excess isn't possible....

There are three times you can use 'split tickets'. When both tickets are zonal (not applicable), when one is a season ticket or leisure pass and the other(s) is/are not (not applicable) or when the train stops where the tickets change over (you confirm this is not applicable).

 

[John @ home]

I know that I shouldn't break my journey

That's not quite right. The £74.10 Off-Peak Return Liverpool Stns - Glasgow Cen/QSt via Preston does not restrict break of either leg of the journey. (Fare set by Virgin, Code 2T is M-F: not before 0415)

The £72.50 Off-Peak Return Liverpool Stns - Edinburgh via Preston does indeed prohibit break of the outward leg of the journey. As such, it is not particularly useful to you. (Fare set by TPE, Code 8A is by any train, no break of outward leg of journey)

 

[calc7]

I haven't been able to check the Easements but it appears that Glasgow to Liverpool is valid via at least Haymarket (though you can't use the route via Carstairs on the way out so get a via Falkirk High express). So you could continue your journey to Edinburgh thence to Liverpool via Carstairs with the RTN portion you hold, and you only need a Haymarket-Edinburgh Single/Return.

 

[eastend43]

Can I double check that Liverpool to Edinburgh via Glasgow is a valid route as I have just been told, in no uncertain terms, that 'there's no way a ticket from liverpool to edinburgh is valid via Glasgow. I explained about the routeing guide but that didn't make any difference.

 

[yorkie]

Can I double check that Liverpool to Edinburgh via Glasgow is a valid route as I have just been told, in no uncertain terms, that 'there's no way a ticket from liverpool to edinburgh is valid via Glasgow. I explained about the routeing guide but that didn't make any difference.

Ask the following questions:

Q1 Are the terms of my ticket subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage?
If No: Show reverse of ticket.
If Yes: Proceed to next question

Q2 Does the National Rail Conditions of Carriage say I can use a route shown in the Routeing Guide?
If No: Ask what does it say then? And offer to load it on your laptop/phone
If Yes: Proceed to next question

Q3 Which mapped routes are listed in the Routeing Guide?
Answer is on page 508 of the Yellow Pages:

• CG+CV
• GK+CG+CV
• GK+GP+CP
• GK+GV
• GK+MG+NO
• GK+MG+NR
• GK+WG+NR
• GP+CP
• GV
• MG+NO
• MG+NR
• WG+NR
• YG+LY
• YG+TP

I don't know which, if any, of these permit travelling via Haymarket, but you can view the maps here.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

And then you just have to check it against NRES........

 

[eastend43]

Thanks for the helpful advice. I have limited access to Internet at the moment but you have stopped me from thinking I am going mad. I will look into the suggestions later tonight.

As for asking the booking office guy and those suggested detailed questions, since he treated me as if I had suggested that he had just sailed up the Clyde in a banana boat (a famous Glaswegian saying) I thought I had better not pursue it....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I haven't been able to check the Easements but it appears that Glasgow to Liverpool is valid via at least Haymarket (though you can't use the route via Carstairs on the way out so get a via Falkirk High express). So you could continue your journey to Edinburgh thence to Liverpool via Carstairs with the RTN portion you hold, and you only need a Haymarket-Edinburgh Single/Return.

I can't work out if the particular route I want to use is a valid route... I can't trace it on maps and the websites I have looked at can't find it, although I am not an expert in checking them. So it seems that Liverpool to Edinburgh is valid via Glasgow, but Liverpool to Glasgow via Edinburgh isn't (unless you go via Yorkshire, which is not appropriate for me as I need to be on the first train in the morning that is direct from Edinburgh to Manchester).

I am still annoyed at the lack of acceptance that Liverpool to Edinburgh is valid via Glasgow when I asked at the Glasgow Central ticket office, particularly due to the rather rude response I got when I suggested that it was according to the national routing guide. I might follow up on that with a complaint.

In the end, it's my work paying for the tickets so I won't be out of pocket.

Thanks again for the advice

 

[Altnabreac]

I agree it is only valid via Edinburgh and Leeds not Edinburgh and Carlisle.

What you needed here was a Liverpool to Croy ticket. This has restriction code 2T so is valid for Break of Journey in Glasgow but also passes the fares check rule to use Falkirk as a routing point so is valid via Haymarket (Maps EG+CG+CV).

Given this is also priced at £74.10 this would have been a zero fare overdistance excess if issued at Liverpool. As it is a zero fare one you may even find someone willing to issue it now even though technically of course it shouldn't be done.