Alcohol Consumption & Working on the railways

[Calthrop]

Posts so far, in general, about the present day or recent past; it would appear that on the railways in distant times, different standards applied, and things were a lot more "free-wheeling" as regards drinking on the job. I recall the splendid (or not) story -- from David L. Smith's Tales of the Glasgow & South-Western Railway? -- of the public holiday something over a century ago, on which three double-headed return passenger specials were run, for Glaswegians to make a day excursion to sample the delights of Stranraer. It so happened -- fortunately, as it turned out -- that the six drivers involved, were teetotallers; they spent their time at the Stranraer end, decorously. All six firemen were fans of "the cup which cheers and inebriates", and spent the time between arrival, and departure for Glasgow, accordingly. On the return journey, the firemen were incapable of doing anything more than leaning out of the cab and throwing up; the drivers had to do the firing too. So far as I remember from the tale, none of the guilty parties lost their job because of this escapade.

 

[47296lastduff]

I remember one Friday afternoon about 1980 hoping to have a look round the very busy South Lambeth goods yard, and possibly cover some track if I found a friendly driver. Enquiring at the gate, I was taken to the boss's office, so I assumed it was game over. It turned out that he was completely sozzled and merry, and he asked a driver to take me wherever I wanted to go. The result was to cover nearly all the main parts of the yard on an 09, ending with a run into Stewarts Lane depot at the end of the crew's shift, stabling the loco for the weekend.
On another occasion in Cornwall I was part of a group with a brake van permit to traverse the Wenford Bridge branch. We halted by a remote level crossing, and everybody walked to the adjacent pub for lunch. The crew were clearly well known and greeted in the pub.

 

[weepingwillowb]

From The Leicestershire Mercury, Saturday, 20th June, 1840:—

Conviction of a Railway Engineer.—At the County Office, Nottingham, on Saturday last, Joseph Barrow and Samuel Dexter, the driver and stoker of an engine on the Midland Counties' Railway, used for the works between Loughborough and Barrow- upon-Soar, were charged by Superintendent Withers with getting drunk and running the engine down to Normanton-on-Soar, where they left it and changed the points so as to throw the engine of the train passing from Nottingham to Leicester off the line, by which the lives of the passengers were endangered. It being proved that they had no right to have taken the engine beyond Loughborough, and that the train was delayed for more than two hours in consequence of their misconduct and neglect, the magistrates convicted Barrow, the driver, in the penalty of £10 and 14s. costs, and fined Dexter 1s. and 10s. expences, as he was only the servant of the driver.

 

[Magdalia]

This is the sort of history where it is essential to start at the beginning and go forwards, not start at the end and work backwards.

Driving and firing steam locomotives was hard physical work in a hot environment. Train crews needed to rehydrate and for a long time beer was safer to drink than water, because the alcohol killed off various impurities.

That became part of the working culture. By the end of steam many railway locations with lots of train crew had the British Rail Staff Association, the railway equivalent of working men's clubs and miners' welfare. Train crew could drink there in a sort of supervised environment. I remember these close to the stations at both Cambridge and March.

It would be interesting to know more about how and when that culture changed. But I'd agree that the Eltham Well Hall derailment was a turning point, occurring when the breathalyser was still relatively new.

 

[Capybara]

Many years ago I was a member of a Working Men's Club in a northern town. The club stood between the Post Office's sorting office on one side and the railway station on the other. Unsurprisingly it was railwaymen and post office workers who made up most of the membership. I was a member because my father was and he was a member because his father (who worked at the Post Office) was. It was that sort of place. One individual in particular spent a lot of time in there, always in his BR uniform. He'd be there after his shift but, often, while he was on it. Every now and then he'd make his excuses so he could "see off" a train and then return to his pint a few minutes later where he'd get on with his true purpose in life, informing anyone who would listen what was right and what was wrong.

 

[contrex]

for a long time beer was safer to drink than water, because the alcohol killed off various impurities.

My mother told me that in the 1920s, her father, a manual worker, took a bottle of cold tea (presumably made with boiled water) to work. I once read that at Rugby School in the 1850s each boy was entitled to a certain amount of 'small beer' every day. This would have been beer brewed with a relatively low level of alcohol, perhaps as low as 0.5%. The idea was, as you say, to provide a wholesome beverage. It wouldn't have been to kill bacteria or microbes, as they hadn't been heard of. As far back as the Middle Ages it was common for workers doing hard manual work to drink more than ten pints a day to quench their thirst, without getting drunk. Small beer was also consumed for its nutrition content, as it might contain traces of wheat or bread suspended. William Hogarth's portrait Beer Street (1751) shows a group of happy workers going about their business after drinking 'table beer'. This was meant to be a happy contrast with another portrait, Gin Lane.

 

[pitdiver]

Back many moons ago the LUL station at Chorleywood had a reputation. On a Sunday when trains on that part of the combine were few and far between the station staff were rumoured to visit the hostelry across the road from the station and just pop back a few minutes before departures to deal with the vast numbers of passengers who wanted to travel

 

[LowLevel]

Certainly going back to the 80s Nottingham traincrew and supervisors had specific hostelries were they were known to be found, with junior crew members being sent as runners to certain more notorious establishments where the phone may not be answered.

I also recall reading of a railtour in Ireland in the 90s or 00s whereby during the afternoon break the guard had been enjoying himself in a local hostelry. He was found to be totally senseless by the tour organiser and carried back to his brake van to sleep off his misdeeds, with said tour organiser waving the flag as required for the rest of the trip.

 

[chorleyjeff]

My mother told me that in the 1920s, her father, a manual worker, took a bottle of cold tea (presumably made with boiled water) to work. I once read that at Rugby School in the 1850s each boy was entitled to a certain amount of 'small beer' every day. This would have been beer brewed with a relatively low level of alcohol, perhaps as low as 0.5%. The idea was, as you say, to provide a wholesome beverage. As far back as the Middle Ages it was common for workers doing hard manual work to drink more than ten pints a day to quench their thirst, without getting drunk. Small beer was also consumed for its nutrition content, as it might contain traces of wheat or bread suspended. William Hogarth's portrait Beer Street (1751) shows a group of happy workers going

This is the sort of history where it is essential to start at the beginning and go forwards, not start at the end and work backwards.

Driving and firing steam locomotives was hard physical work in a hot environment. Train crews needed to rehydrate and for a long time beer was safer to drink than water, because the alcohol killed off various impurities.

That became part of the working culture. By the end of steam many railway locations with lots of train crew had the British Rail Staff Association, the railway equivalent of working men's clubs and miners' welfare. Train crew could drink there in a sort of supervised environment. I remember these close to the stations at both Cambridge and March.

It would be interesting to know more about how and when that culture changed. But I'd agree that the Eltham Well Hall derailment was a turning point, occurring when the breathalyser was still relatively new.

I think it was boiling the water to make beer that made it safe to drink.
about their business after drinking 'table beer'. This was meant to be a happy contrast with another portrait, Gin Lane.

 

[High Dyke]

I was speaking to our Club Secretary recently, a retired guard. He tells me crews from other depots used to call in the club for their rest break before returning home. The station staff frequently rung round to advise the crew it was time to get back to the station.

It wasn't much different in other places. As a kid we used to visit the Fire Station social club, located at the fire station. Many times the alarm would go and half a dozen or so firefighters put their beer down and go out on a shout.

About twelve years ago I attended a friends wedding in Romania. On the last day of the trip we visited the railway station. There was a building not dissimilar to a signal box. The guy inside called us over to look inside. It turned out to be the P-way supervisor's office. His first question was: "would you like a beer?"

 

[Iskra]

There's some interesting stuff about alcohol in the report on the 1972 Eltham Accident. (From para 40 and, particularly re contemporary attitudes, from para 45 onwards.)

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoE_Eltham1972.pdf

Thank you, that's a really excellent report that gives plenty of useful information.

Thank you to everyone else who has contributed, there's some really interesting anecdotes

 

[kylemore]

I remember as a student in Edinburgh in 1980/1 regularly missing classes with a pal and going for a pint in one of the dives in the Grassmarket. We favoured a place called - if I remember correctly - the "Green Tree" mainly because it had a bar billiards table. There were invariably one or two BR drivers there and in conversation we found they were usually on their breaks having a quiet pint before their next turn.

At the time I also had a summer job on the Calmac ferries and drinking both on and off duty was common.

 

[furnessvale]

50+ years ago I was in pub - Tetley pub bottom of Lune St, Preston - on Friday and Saturday evenings where footplate staff would knock back a few pints then wander back to work. Different times with weaker beer and slow trains.

Top and bottom houses on Butler St and the Theatre on Fishergate would have produced considerably more staff than the Tetley house (Corporation Arms?) to which you refer!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Things changed in the late 80s. Prior to that a liquid lunch on Fridays was the norm for HQ staff & we would be invited in for drinks by the boss on Xmas leave. This changed in I think 1989, there was a major communications exercise which made it clear that drinking for anyone was a sackable event. In later years if you drank during your Xmas lunch you were told not to back into the office.

Even outside the railway, the idea of a "liquid lunch" is vanishing. I don't do anything remotely safety critical in my work, but a couple of years back a few of us went for lunch and I was the only one to drink, the graduates in particular were a bit surprised.

 

[Horizon22]

@Iskra

That link only tells me that they were caught. Nothing about what checks are put in place. My TOC has 'caught' a fair few people but there are effectively zero checks.

I could book on totally inebriated tomorrow and nobody would know about it.

They could have a suspicion that you were "totally inebriated", tell a manager who could then do a "for cause" test.

I have known of people lose their job after such tests, although for the indidvidual it had been suspected for some time. I also have known people lose jobs after refusing to take a test which basically most Drugs and Alcohol policies mark out as being the same as a positive test.

 

[Haywain]

I also have known people lose jobs after refusing to take a test which basically most Drugs and Alcohol policies mark out as being the same as a positive test.

On the railway, I would be astonished if anyone kept their job after failing a drugs or alcohol test.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

There is/was a pub in Preston called Hole in’th wall or similar. When a train was in the siding waiting passage into Preston Station and checked at a signal, the driver or fireman would pop through the wall onto the street and into the pub for a quick one.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Back in the day , some shockers were related to me , like a London terminal signal box where one of the jobs of the early turn cleaners was to dispose of the empty bottles that the night turn had left behind, a DMU driver who on the last bit of his turn before annual leave , and going to a party after work , foolishly bought a bottle of vodka for later and temptation struck and most of it was polished off between stations (sacked and a jail sentence) , night turn shunters turning up for work from the pub with 4 cans each for their break - and so on.

But then - not just the railway had this issue - a friend who was involved in the maritime business - related as to how beer bottles found on ships bridges .......

 

[6Gman]

From The Leicestershire Mercury, Saturday, 20th June, 1840:—

Conviction of a Railway Engineer.—At the County Office, Nottingham, on Saturday last, Joseph Barrow and Samuel Dexter, the driver and stoker of an engine on the Midland Counties' Railway, used for the works between Loughborough and Barrow- upon-Soar, were charged by Superintendent Withers with getting drunk and running the engine down to Normanton-on-Soar, where they left it and changed the points so as to throw the engine of the train passing from Nottingham to Leicester off the line, by which the lives of the passengers were endangered. It being proved that they had no right to have taken the engine beyond Loughborough, and that the train was delayed for more than two hours in consequence of their misconduct and neglect, the magistrates convicted Barrow, the driver, in the penalty of £10 and 14s. costs, and fined Dexter 1s. and 10s. expences, as he was only the servant of the driver.

Noteworthy though that the conviction seems to have been largely based on what they did rather than their condition.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

But then - not just the railway had this issue -——-

Indeed. I have been working with chemicals all my life. First day at work off to the club and 3 pints of Thwaites beer. After lunch back to handling chemicals and chemical plant. It went out of fashion or became politically incorrect about 1990 iirc

 

[Jan Mayen]

When I worked on the railways in the 2000's, I was told that the Evening Star (pub opposite Brighton Station) was regarded as an unofficial signing on point in the 1980's.

 

[contrex]

There was a very sad story about an LU Jubilee Line driver in 2014.

 

[ComUtoR]

They could have a suspicion that you were "totally inebriated", tell a manager who could then do a "for cause" test.

A 'system' based on somebody noticing and then grassing you up isn't really a system or any form of check. It's basically 'The Honour system'

I have known of people lose their job after such tests, although for the individual it had been suspected for some time. I also have known people lose jobs after refusing to take a test which basically most Drugs and Alcohol policies mark out as being the same as a positive test.

I would say most of us have know someone who has been sacked because of drink and drugs. Which is quite interesting in itself. If there are a significant number of people still getting caught, has the railway solved anything ? To think there is any real check is a fallacy. Enfield springs to mind for a recent event.

The railway hasn't learned from their past. What has happened is that there has been a culture change in society and 'drink driving' in any form is frowned upon. Chuck in the threat of imprisonment and the situation almost self resolves. However, if you look at that Caledonian incident. The employees were allowed to quit.

 

[Horizon22]

A 'system' based on somebody noticing and then grassing you up isn't really a system or any form of check. It's basically 'The Honour system'



I would say most of us have know someone who has been sacked because of drink and drugs. Which is quite interesting in itself. If there are a significant number of people still getting caught, has the railway solved anything ? To think there is any real check is a fallacy. Enfield springs to mind for a recent event.

The railway hasn't learned from their past. What has happened is that there has been a culture change in society and 'drink driving' in any form is frowned upon. Chuck in the threat of imprisonment and the situation almost self resolves. However, if you look at that Caledonian incident. The employees were allowed to quit.

What would you suggest? Mandatory drug tests every time someone books on? An increase in random checks?

I think the railway has learnt - I can't tell you how many times "zero tolerance" has been drilled into training. If people are going to continue to do those things fully aware of the consequences, then it goes way beyond the railway to a cultural and societal issue which all industries face and concerning that people won't come forward to discuss they are having a problem.

From stories I've heard where people would drive/dispatch a train > have a break in the pub > go back to driving/dispatching just 20-25 years suggest times have very much changed. As are those being caught which might have been swept under the radar before. That's not to say people should be complacent and there's always work to do.

 

[ComUtoR]

An increase in random checks?

Absolutely. Randoms are done less and less because of the cost involved. We increased ours recently because more people were getting caught post incident. Effectively we had become very complacent.

I think the railway has learnt - I can't tell you how many times "zero tolerance" has been drilled into training. If people are going to continue to do those things fully aware of the consequences, then it goes way beyond the railway to a cultural and societal issue which all industries face and concerning that people won't come forward to discuss they are having a problem.

But it is still very reactive. We catch people after the fact and generally because they have an incident. People chance it because they know they can get away with it.

I think the belief that we are bullet proof and that nobody does it is just another hole in the cheese. Chuck in the absence of any checks and you have a second.

 

[Hornet]

Used to have a couple of pint with my oppo whilst on a 2 til 10 shift. Was a S&T Technician at the time (late 70's) based in a Home Counties Power Box. Signalmen had the number of the Pub we used just in case a fault occured. Also our Supervisor caught us brewing Elderberry wine in the Battery Room in the Box. All the S&T crew at the Box were involved. Just told us to get rid of it, him being the biggest drinker of the lot. (Three hour lunch breaks, with that glassy eyed look on his return). Sometimes you needed a drink if you were doing 6pm to 6am nights Sun - Fri and 6pm to 8am Sat night.

 

[Ashley Hill]

When I joined the railway in the mid 80s moderate drinking still occurred. Whether during a break or sat spare a couple of pints were overlooked. If you were spare the foreman at least knew where to find staff. Likewise he knew where to find staff to work overtime. As long as nobody abused it it seemed to be tolerated although outright drunkenness wasn’t. Come the early 1990s when the Alcohol & Drugs policy was firmly introduced drinking on duty (or before,the 12hr rule) stopped forthwith. The blood/alcohol limit for being on duty is lower than that for driving. The unions also signed up for this saying that anyone caught would not necessarily be represented at a hearing.

 

[D6968]

A 'system' based on somebody noticing and then grassing you up isn't really a system or any form of check. It's basically 'The Honour system'



I would say most of us have know someone who has been sacked because of drink and drugs. Which is quite interesting in itself. If there are a significant number of people still getting caught, has the railway solved anything ? To think there is any real check is a fallacy. Enfield springs to mind for a recent event.

The railway hasn't learned from their past. What has happened is that there has been a culture change in society and 'drink driving' in any form is frowned upon. Chuck in the threat of imprisonment and the situation almost self resolves. However, if you look at that Caledonian incident. The employees were allowed to quit.

Total BS my friend, I have various friends in various positions on the railway that like a drink.
However they are very much aware of the consequences if they go in with the merest hint of alcohol in their system from the previous day/night before.

 

[cockneyviking]

When I was a 2nd man at a west mids depot in the late 80's, we would book on for an engineering job, but come in an hour early, get the train ready and retire to the pub for a couple of hours before the train was due to go. This came to an end when one day our guard had a punch up in the pub and got arrested.

 

[furnessvale]

There is/was a pub in Preston called Hole in’th wall or similar. When a train was in the siding waiting passage into Preston Station and checked at a signal, the driver or fireman would pop through the wall onto the street and into the pub for a quick one.

Proper name was "The Princess Alexandra". The "Hole in'th Wall" referred to its position on Fylde Rd rather than any direct access to the WCML which sits directly above it. Access from Preston MPD was down Ashton St and it was popular with footplatemen between jobs.

I wouldn't have recommended leaving a train unattended on the two track WCML, with no loops or sidings, at this point. Flikr has a version of the story which may just be plausible involving the newly built Preston and Lancaster Railway, where the driver of a stopped train could obtain a pint through a hole in the side wall of the pub itself. Given the few trains in those days this MAY just have worked!