Ale trail revellers rail warning

[Solent&Wessex]

I drink real ale, and often quite a lot of it. I have done the ale-trail many times, but never on a Saturday in recent years. I and my friends (I am 31) have managed to do the ale trail pubs, plus more besides, and still be able to behave ourselves when on the way home later on. On Wednesday this week I went to the Liverpool area for some beers and a trundle round with some friends. My first pint was at about 12noon in a pub at New Brighton. My last pint was around 2300 back home in my local. I, and my friends, managed to get back from Liverpool without feeling the need to shout, scream, urinate all over the place, vomit in the aisle or generally behave like yobs.

This morning I was at work, and left Leeds late morning heading back to Manchester. Apart from football fans, the train was packed with large groups of men and lads, and a hen party, some in fancy dress, all heading out to Stalybridge to begin the pub crawl back towards Leeds. One group was drinking cans of Fosters on the train. I got talking one group and, as per posters above, most of them didn't drink real ale, and was intent on drinking lager etc. Now I'm not being snobbish, but from my experience large groups of people drinking lager and other things (I don't think the hen party will be drinking ale all day) tend to behave in a much worse way than those drinking ale. Fact.

Recent evening occurrences on this route include : Someone urinating in the doorway by my door controls, Someone vomiting on another passenger (who was completely un-related to the pub crawl), someone so unconscious with drink that they couldn't stand up, glasses & bottles being thrown on platforms and trains, toilet door broken, people climbing on seats and tables, someone being racially abusive.

I refuse to go down the trains on this route at times now as many of them do not have tickets, or if they have had one they have lost it, the abuse you get for even appearing down the train is horrendous.

And, generally, lots of the worst troublemakers are NOT young yobbos. The majority causing the bother, from my experience, are groups of men most aged 40s upwards who appear to have been let loose from the wife for the day and are intent on acting like 12 year olds again.

 

[175001]

Indeed, thats exactly what I see when working the HUD stoppers.

It disgusts me, as you pointed out, that it isn't your stereotypical young ones, my age group, who cause all the hassle.....but its fathers and grandfathers, 40+'ers, who act more like their grandchildren! Shocking.

 

[Greenback]

I have to agree with kwvr45, although down our way couples of a similar age are often almost as badly behaved as the men in their 40's!

Trains into Swanse aon a Friday or Saturday evening from here are full of drinkers of all ages - behaviour seems to have little link to how old they are. There are very well behaved youths, badly behaved middle aged people and vice versa.

 

[table38]

I remember travelling on a DMU from Manchester to Warrington in the mid 70s when we had to stop occasionally so that the guard could climb out and retrieve the seats that had been thrown out of the window by the drunk football fans on the way in.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Just got back from York on a TPE and no probs until Stalybridge where loads going into Manchester got on and a few were already on their way to p**sed oblivion (and they were the middle aged ones!)

 

[RichmondCommu]

What utter tosh! Sappire is right, these loons are not real ale drinkers, but louts who knock back lager and spirits by the gallon. Real ale drinkers are usually gentlemen of a certain age who are discerning in what they imbibe, can hold their drink, and know how to behave.

What absolute nonsense! They are simply out to have a good time with their friends; what’s wrong with that? Clearly the pubs along the line don't mind them buying WKD and cheap lager (and lets face it pubs need all the trade they can get). Also, you can't promote railways as "ale trails" and then ban people because they'd rather have a pint of Fosters than a pint of Pedigree!

As for "drinkers of a certain age"; good grief! I'm now 45 and I've been drinking pints of bitter since I started drinking in pubs in my teens. As has my wife who is now 42. The real ale movement could really do without such snobbishness if it’s to promote itself to those who are not "gentlemen of a certain age". Go to any beer festival and you will see people of all ages (both sexes) enjoying a decent pint and they know their ale just as well as you do. Or perhaps you would prefer that young people were not allowed in?

In my opinion, with the attitudes you have you are no better than those who you criticise.

 

[Chapeltom]

I'm 19 and love my real ale... I hate lager, also enjoy my Belgian beers.

If I do the TP Ale Trail next year it'll be on a Friday again... beginning at midday at Batley... away from the idiot brigade.

 

[yorksrob]

I remember travelling on a DMU from Manchester to Warrington in the mid 70s when we had to stop occasionally so that the guard could climb out and retrieve the seats that had been thrown out of the window by the drunk football fans on the way in.

I can remember in the nineties travelling in the Southern Region when the cuttings and embankments near London were festooned with EPB cushions jettisoned by unruly travellers.

 

[theblackwatch]

I'm sure most of the ale fans don't mind others joining in with their WKD blue and lager - but they want them to behave sensibly! There do seem to be a growing number of people who, after a few drinks, have no respect for others or property. If people are a bit merry or happy that's fine but when it comes to being abusive to staff and other passengers, causing a nuisance and doing things like urinating in the doorway, it's not acceptable.

I tend to do the Real Ale Trail once a year, last year on the Saturday it was heaving and my idea of a nice quiet drink in Marsden failed! I think on my next visit, I'll start off with my usual Rail Ale Breakfast with a pint in Dewsbury, then do Batley and Huddersfield before diverging off the main route to Sowerby Bridge, which has the Jubilee Refreshment Rooms by the station and a couple of other good real ale pubs in town only a few minutes away. I might even stick it up as a forum meet!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Up to a couple of years ago, when it was the real-ale trail, it was (almost always) all right. The odd beard got a bit wobbly or the odd sandal strap chaffed a little. Now it has exploded into birthday/stag do celebrations and a large proportion of the revellers would not know real-ale from a real banana. For proof of this you only need to be in one of the pubs along the trail and hear the rounds being ordered as the latest train decants its passengers on an hourly basis. Lager, JD and coke and Sambucas outsell ale. Lager louts jumping onto a temporarily fashionable band-waggon. This too will pass.

Having the current unfortunate trend towards how the once-enjoyable trail has been "hijacked" in mind and your final comment of "This too will pass", do you honestly think that matters will improve in the foreseeable future.

Have you any thoughts on how the real-ale trail could ever return to its former raison d'etre without the addition of the recent "clientale" ?

 

[merlodlliw]

When I lived in Rhyl in the50s/60s(before decay set in), every day in summer from Bay 1 at Rhyl station,a train ran push & pull to Llandudno every hour,it had about four coaches, this became a holiday makers Ale Train, last train back to Rhyl left Llandudno at 10pm. It was advertised as "An evening in Llandudno"


I travelled many times, but never noticed any problems, forget the price of ticket, but it was cheap after 6 pm, I am sure it was called the Welsh Dragon.

Amusingly next to bay 1 was the circus platform with its elephant bay, I recall the annual Summer Circus at Rhyl Pavilion & its arrival by train in the 50s.


Bob

 

[CallySleeperKid]

Some of what I'm reading here really saddens me. I have been planning on doing the 'rail-ale' for quite a while now, but the first thing I have drawn from this thread is that it won't be on a Friday or Saturday!

I think there are a lot of views on types of real ale drinkers and who causes the trouble etc...., so here are mine.

For the record, I'm 32 this week, been a CAMRA member for 5 years (no beard or beer belly), but drunk real ale for as long as I can remember, and been to many many beer festivals all over the UK.

I do believe there is a different effect people get from drinking real ale, you can always pick the regular ale drinkers from the non regulars at a beer festival. (and not because of the beard and beer belly!). Beer festivals are designed to give the real ale drinker a taste of the beers they wouldn't normally see in a particular area, plus to bring in and convert , if you like, the lager and alcopop drinkers to a more traditional drink. Beer festivals work very well and are alway a pleasure to visit.

The only downside, and this is what I see happening with the rail-ale, is that there is still a culture to drink every drink going, so when a list of pubs on the line is in front of some people, they have to do every pub, at any cost! Leading to people who can't handle there ale ending up in a mess.

In a similar state I have seen people at beer festivals just go through the beer list and pick the strongest ones, wether they are light, dark, stout, porter or cider.

It all boils down to people knowing their limits, which sadly some people don't. Some people will go out and pick and enjoys the ales that appeal to them, other will just 'have a pint of that one'!

Back to the subject, I can't wait to do the rail ale route, but it will be a mid week where I can enjoy the choices of ale on offer and also enjoy my train ride!

I really feel for the staff dealing with the idiots that let this great route down, but having worked in pubs many years ago, there is not much you can do about the idiots that are intent on getting smashed, on whatever concoction of drinks they can lay their hands on.

Love my real ale and can't wait do do the trail.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Some of what I'm reading here really saddens me. I have been planning on doing the 'rail-ale' for quite a while now, but the first thing I have drawn from this thread is that it won't be on a Friday or Saturday! .....

....

Back to the subject, I can't wait to do the rail ale route, but it will be a mid week where I can enjoy the choices of ale on offer and also enjoy my train ride!

I really feel for the staff dealing with the idiots that let this great route down, but having worked in pubs many years ago, there is not much you can do about the idiots that are intent on getting smashed, on whatever concoction of drinks they can lay their hands on.

Love my real ale and can't wait do do the trail.

You are fine to do it anytime other than Saturday. Friday is fine, Sunday is fine. In fact I went the other Sunday to Marsden, Slaithwaite, Huddersfield and Dewsbury. Very pleasant Sunday afternoon out with friends. The pubs were busy with trade from the locals and some walkers, but not over busy and no idiots. A generally very convivial atmosphere. It is a lot easier on a Sunday since the local service from HUD - MCV became hourly. Just try and avoid the TPE services between HUD - DEW as they were grossly overcrowded. We had difficulty fitting on the train at DEW - even for the 10 minute hop back into Leeds.

To all those who may want to visit the area - the scenery is nice, the pubs are all handy close to stations and a very varied and tasty selection of local and regional real ales can be sampled. Just don't come on a Saturday!

 

[CosherB]

In my opinion, with the attitudes you have you are no better than those who you criticise.

Well done in missing the point totally, RC. I think it went whizzing past your steaming left ear, about 10 feet away!

I think if you read this thread you'll deduce that 9 times out of 10 the badly behaved ones are not the real ale drinkers at all. Sorry if that conflicts with your predudices.

A group of us do this trail regularly, but have avoided weekends for some time now. Go mid week and not only do you miss all the puking urinating lager louts, but you can easily get served in the pubs as well.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

Having the current unfortunate trend towards how the once-enjoyable trail has been "hijacked" in mind and your final comment of "This too will pass", do you honestly think that matters will improve in the foreseeable future.

Have you any thoughts on how the real-ale trail could ever return to its former raison d'etre without the addition of the recent "clientale" ?

Yes, it will (shall) pass, as will all things, for good or ill. Persian Proverb, as I'm sure you knew.

As I alluded in my initial post, the trail has become fashionable for a while.
The groups choosing this as a trip of today have being clearly influenced by Clarke and May who happened to latch on to a day out that was being followed by ale drinkers for quite a few years. Indeed the original trail, in terms of this line, was LDS to MSN using the West Yorkshire Day Rover for 2 adults to travel together for a cheap day out. The SYB and MCV extensions came later. It was all about Real-Ale pubs near the stations as a way of having a beer festival of your own, every day you wanted.
The guards (and drivers) on the route would have a laugh with us as we went back and forth during the day. I've got notes going back to 1995 of such trips, and train staffs reaction to them. (Usually "Can we come next time" was the order of the day)
Now it is not like that on any given Saturday. Others have given examples so I don't have to repeat them.
It will back to how it was before again fairly soon I am sure. The groups currently stagging/henning/birthdaying will soon have done it and will move on to the next "in thing". They always do. Weekend in Prague anyone?
Without them the trail will continue as long as good ale is available along the route.

RichmondCommu. I can only assume you have no knowledge of MCV to LDS on a Saturday now and also of two years ago, as you are so far wide of the mark to be laughable. Your opinion is ill-informed to say the least. Taking just HUD for example. We have the case of two pubs with exits onto platform 1, having to keep them locked on BTP "advice" all day Saturday, to stop revellers "wobbling onto the tracks" (direct BTP quote) We have two seperate landladies/landlords in pubs a short walk from the station actively trying to dissuade "ale-trailers" from re-visiting
their pubs. Sadly the people in question just say "We weren't coming again anyway". These may be just folks "having a good day out with their friends". But some of them are hooligans, plain and simple. And in my personnel experience they do not drink real-ale whilst doing it. Snobbish of me? No mate, just a statement of fact. And yes, my friend, in this case the attitude I have IS better than those I criticise"

 

[RichmondCommu]

Well done in missing the point totally, RC. I think it went whizzing past your steaming left ear, about 10 feet away!

I think if you read this thread you'll deduce that 9 times out of 10 the badly behaved ones are not the real ale drinkers at all. Sorry if that conflicts with your predudices.

A group of us do this trail regularly, but have avoided weekends for some time now. Go mid week and not only do you miss all the puking urinating lager louts, but you can easily get served in the pubs as well.

Ok, if you'd not been so busy trying to work out how to use the lol smiley you would have read my post properly and realised that in fact I've not shown prejudice to towards any demographic group. Nor have I described real ale as being only enjoyed by gentlemen of a certain age, whatever that means. I'm an active member of CAMRA and shudder at the thought of drinking Fosters or WKD. However, I have not problem with those that do, unlike yourself.

As for your 'poll', it’s hardly scientific is it? As serving rail employees have already pointed out on here its gentlemen of a certain age that are more often than not to be found behaving badly rather than people in their 20's. Let’s face it your only real gripe here is that the masses are not drinking real ale and are instead quaffing lager. An individual who drinks nine pints of real ale will end up in the state as the same person drinking nine pints of lager. Its alcohol for goodness sake!

Finally, if organisations are going to actively promote a railway as an ale trail what on earth did they expect would happen? Sooner or later, people who wanted a day on the beer with with their mates were going to soon cotton on to a pub crawl with a twist. If the pubs along the line really wanted to stop lovers of Fosters and WKD entering their pubs all they had to do was to stop selling it! Its hardly rocket science and there are plenty of pubs who do exactly that so how come they haven't?

 

[142094]

The MCV - HUD stoppers have always been packed on Saturdays. I remember being on a few about 3 years ago, and they were full of shoppers going into and coming out of Manchester. Overcrowding is nothing new on that line, although it has become a lot worse since the Ale Trail became more and more popular.

In effect I don't think there is much that can be done. There'll probably be a point in the future where the popularity wanes, or another new scene becomes the next best thing.

Drinking and trains is nothing new - see it all the time with football and even trains out of York on weekends and race days will have the same sort of people on nowadays.

For the record I am also a CAMRA member and drink real ale. Never been in bother myself, although hangovers are a recurring theme.

 

[CosherB]

Nor have I described real ale as being only enjoyed by gentlemen of a certain age, whatever that means.....

.....As serving rail employees have already pointed out on here its gentlemen of a certain age

Ah! So despite your protestations, you do know what it means as you've used it yourself. (Took me sub 1 millisecond to apply that smiley, BTW. It not rocket science, you know. :roll

The rest of your post really deserves no further comment. I have no wish to be rude, so no comment is what I'll give it.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Ah! So despite your protestations, you do know what it means as you've used it yourself. (Took me sub 1 millisecond to apply that smiley, BTW. It not rocket science, you know. :roll

The rest of your post really deserves no further comment. I have no wish to be rude, so no comment is what I'll give it.

I've asked you to explain the term "gentlemen of a certain age" and you have not done so. This leads one to conclude that you don't understand what it means either.

 

[yorksrob]

Let’s face it your only real gripe here is that the masses are not drinking real ale and are instead quaffing lager. An individual who drinks nine pints of real ale will end up in the state as the same person drinking nine pints of lager. Its alcohol for goodness sake!

TBF it can be a bit trying when you get to a good alehouse for a few jars and a read and you can't get served because of the three lines of people in front buying filthy nitro-slop

 

[RichmondCommu]

RichmondCommu. I can only assume you have no knowledge of MCV to LDS on a Saturday now and also of two years ago, as you are so far wide of the mark to be laughable. Your opinion is ill-informed to say the least. Taking just HUD for example. We have the case of two pubs with exits onto platform 1, having to keep them locked on BTP "advice" all day Saturday, to stop revellers "wobbling onto the tracks" (direct BTP quote) We have two seperate landladies/landlords in pubs a short walk from the station actively trying to dissuade "ale-trailers" from re-visiting
their pubs. Sadly the people in question just say "We weren't coming again anyway". These may be just folks "having a good day out with their friends". But some of them are hooligans, plain and simple. And in my personnel experience they do not drink real-ale whilst doing it. Snobbish of me? No mate, just a statement of fact. And yes, my friend, in this case the attitude I have IS better than those I criticise"

In all honesty no I haven't travelled between Manchester and Leeds in many years on a Saturday for this reason; I live in the SE and like to spend time with my wife and kids at weekends and as I'm sure you'd agree going on a pub crawl is not an ideal way to do this! However I've done the "ale trail" with some old friends from Uni several times in the past during mid week. The beers have always been first class and it’s been a great way to catch up and have a good laugh. Of 8 people, I'd say the split between lager and real ale is 50:50 but hey that’s down to personal choice.

In fairness providing people behave themselves it really doesn't matter whether they drink real ale or not and surely you don't mind people have a laugh and a joke with their mates? I'm active member of CAMRA but I have no problem with people drinking fizzy lager on our days out. In my experience lager is not a catalyst for bad behaviour, its just that the vast majority of beer drinkers in this country tend to drink lager and so on average they are more likely to cause trouble. There is a serious problem with anitsocial behaviour in this country but this is not restricted to train travel between Manchester and Leeds.

Sapphire Blue, I completely agree that Hooliganism should not be tolerated anywhere in society and especially on public transport. However, I'm afraid that the organisations who promoted the line as an "ale trail" have only themselves to blame. Given that the trains run between two heavily populated metropolitan areas it was inevitable that the route was going to be become increasingly popular once word started to spread. If they want to stop the lager drinking masses from using the route stop selling them cheap lager and WKD! There are plenty of free houses and smaller chains who have adopted this policy and perhaps pubs along the line in question should try it too.

 

[gordonthemoron]

to illustrate that drunken hooliganism on trains is not peculiar to the UK:

50 s-bahn trains damaged by drunks

this has seriously disrupted s-bahns this week