All trains calling at all stations for suburban lines

[miklcct]

Since May 2021, TfL Rail ran all trains calling at all stations between Liverpool Street and Shenfield / Gidea Park, replacing the earlier service pattern inherited from Greater Anglia which saw trains skipping stations during peak hours.

To me, it was a massive service improvement, since commuters could board the first departing train under all circumstances at Stratford, and no longer needed to wait at the platform for the correct train. It has reduced platform overcrowding risk massively, delay recovery has become much easier, and local passengers now have a true turn-up-and-go service, instead of facing an up to 30-minute wait for a train calling at the next station down the line (e.g. Maryland to Forest Gate).

I wish this method of working can be extended to other suburban railways, for example, c2c and SWR and Thameslink. Actually, c2c once intended to do so in 2016, but under-investment of their train service (insufficient rolling stock) meant that they had to revert back to skipping stops since a true turn-up-and-go metro (every train calling at all stations between Upminster and Fenchurch Street) service attracted too many passengers for their trains despite an overall capacity gain, where on the Elizabeth line, the replacement of class 315 with class 345 was a massive capacity boost.

In the coming years, assuming that there are adequate funding for rolling stocks, which suburban lines have the greatest potential to become all trains for all stations? Is c2c going to get enough stocks to add the missing stops back in the evening peak, allowing a big growth for commuters boarding at Fenchurch Street?

 

[JonathanH]

Is c2c going to get enough stocks to add the missing stops back in the evening peak, allowing a big growth for commuters boarding at Fenchurch Street?

c2c is actually a bad example of what you are looking for. The District Line runs alongside and calls at all stations out to Upminster. When all c2c services called at Barking, passengers chose to use the c2c service from there instead of the District Line because it is faster. If the services from further out are already full, there isn't much point stopping them at Barking.

Similarly, there isn't much point making Reading to Waterloo services call at all stations in the London area because there is only a half hourly service to Reading and it already takes 80 minutes. Services have to share capacity, and different passengers need to be offered fair access to the running lines.

 

[Hadders]

Suggesting that every Thameslink from Cambridge or Peterborough should call at places like Welham Green, Brookmans Park, Harringay etc is bonkers.

How long are you proposing to extend journey times by?

 

[miklcct]

c2c is actually a bad example of what you are looking for. The District Line runs alongside and calls at all stations out to Upminster. When all c2c services called at Barking, passengers chose to use the c2c service from there instead of the District Line because it is faster. If the services from further out are already full, there isn't much point stopping them at Barking.

This was actually a good thing, with c2c acting as an express District Line like a 4-line railway. Barking is an important interchange station for the Goblin to avoid Zone 1 as well.

It is clear that the line is full of capacity and any non-stop trains will end up being blocked by the stopping trains before it, so there is no time penalty to stop these trains as well.

Suggesting that every Thameslink from Cambridge or Peterborough should call at places like Welham Green, Brookmans Park, Harringay etc is bonkers.

How long are you proposing to extend journey times by?

The Thameslink services should run all stations to Stevenage, then Finsbury Park on the fast line where no trains will stop in between.

However, the "slow" Great Northern service to Cambridge should stop at every station like the 717 service, as it is a slow train.

 

[miklcct]

Similarly, there isn't much point making Reading to Waterloo services call at all stations in the London area because there is only a half hourly service to Reading and it already takes 80 minutes. Services have to share capacity, and different passengers need to be offered fair access to the running lines.

There are 4 lines between Barnes and London so there is no need to call at stations in between, but on the 2-line section, all trains should call at all stations to maximise capacity.

Similarly, all trains on the main line should get the stop at Earlsfield reinstantiated as well.

On the Elizabeth line, TfL inherited a skip-stop pattern, however, train overcrowding is forcing it to add a stop at Acton Main Line for some services. I wish that one day it will become all trains calling at all stations, like the eastern section, to increase capacity.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I thought that the Shenfield Metro did skip-stops. I thought I was imagining it.

It's rare to see a thread advocate for more stopping services, over the years we've had a number of threads advocating for more express suburban services. Living on the Central Section all our services are stopping. There's a few oddities like the West Croydon to Victoria local services not stopping at Wandsworth Common for some reason and the peak extras to Epsom which annoying miss Balham. But otherwise there's few fasts, and I think few places nowadays with an intensive of service as the Shenfield line with an unhelpfully complicated stopping pattern.

I would argue that the Western Arm of Crossrail could be simplified as some stations are missed by some services. Like Terminal 5 trains for instance.

 

[miklcct]

There's a few oddities like the West Croydon to Victoria local services not stopping at Wandsworth Common for some reason and the peak extras to Epsom which annoying miss Balham.

These oddities are the thing I want to be removed, as they don't really help capacity.

Balham is an important interchange station for the Northern line to the City, as important as the West Ham stop for c2c service. All suburban trains should stop there.

It's rare to see a thread advocate for more stopping services, over the years we've had a number of threads advocating for more express suburban services.

They should be on an all-or-nothing basis. For example, no peak services stop at Romford on the fast line because there isn't enough capacity. Having some trains call at a station but not others is a waste of line capacity.

More express suburban services should be provided in form of running outer suburban services non-stop through the fast line, instead of skipping stops on the slow line, for example, the Thameslink services to Bedford which runs on the fast between West Hampstead Thameslink and St Albans, or the GWR Didcot service which has moved to the fast last year, releasing line capacity for a more frequent Elizabeth line service.

 

[JonathanH]

On the Elizabeth line, TfL inherited a skip-stop pattern, however, train overcrowding is forcing it to add a stop at Acton Main Line for some services. I wish that one day it will become all trains calling at all stations, like the eastern section, to increase capacity.

That only works though if you run all the trains the same distance. At the moment, the Reading trains miss out stations to concentrate the passengers travelling out to Slough, Burnham, Taplow, Maidenhead and Twyford on one service and inner suburban passengers on another. The frequency required at the London end is clearly greater than the frequency required at the Reading end. If two trains an hour went to Reading but all services run all stations, you run the risk of Taplow and Burnham passengers, for example, not only having a longer journey but also not being able to board their train.

 

[FlyingPotato]

While I get the idea, it can be questionable for some lines
The cross city line is considered suburban, should XC stop at the likes of five ways and Bournevill as it's a suburban line

 

[Magdalia]

I wish this method of working can be extended to other suburban railways, for example, c2c and SWR and Thameslink.

None of these are suburban railways, though they do operate some suburban services. Southend, Guildford, Basingstoke, Brighton, Bedford and Cambridge are not suburbs of London.

The suburbs of London extend to about 15-20 miles from the centre. The Greater London boundary and the M25 are good guides of where the London suburbs end. It doesn't help that in the past the railway has used "suburban" too loosely, to describe services that are not properly suburban.

All stations services work on truly suburban lines, up to a distance of 15-20 miles from the centre, with stations that are very close together and dedicated tracks.

Once the distance exceeds 15-20 miles, and the stations get further apart, then the benefits of all stations operation diminish and the costs multiply. In particular, over long distances, fast running reduces the number of trains and drivers needed to operate the service.

In an ideal world the suburban and longer distance services would not have to share the same infrastructure.

c2c is actually a bad example of what you are looking for. The District Line runs alongside and calls at all stations out to Upminster.

In this example that was achieved 60 years ago.

Since May 2021, TfL Rail ran all trains calling at all stations between Liverpool Street and Shenfield / Gidea Park, replacing the earlier service pattern inherited from Greater Anglia which saw trains skipping stations during peak hours.

In this example that was achieved only recently, as part of Crossrail.

But both had the luxury of a 4 track railway. Where there are only 2 tracks the suburban and longer distance services have to share, and that involves compromises.

 

[miklcct]

The suburbs of London extend to about 15-20 miles from the centre. The Greater London boundary and the M25 are good guides of where the London suburbs end. It doesn't help that in the past the railway has used "suburban" too loosely, to describe services that are not properly suburban.

Using SWR and Thameslink as examples, they both have distinct service groups. Bedford - Brighton is clearly not suburban, but how about Luton - Rainham? It extends a significant distance outside the boundary but it is in the same service group as St Alban's - Sutton, which interwork with the other at Luton / St Alban's occasionally.

On the South West, the Waterloo - Woking / Guildford services are also in the same service group as the Dorking / Chessington / Shepperton services, running on the same track with the same stock.

These 2 examples are all on the slow line on 4-track railways, shouldn't them be treated as a suburban service despite running further out? Skipping stations such as Raynes Park and New Malden makes connecting journeys changing at Surbiton for e.g. Woking, Guildford and Basingstoke very inconvenient, as the stopper only runs every half an hour.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Balham is an important interchange station for the Northern line to the City, as important as the West Ham stop for c2c service. All suburban trains should stop there.

Well as a former lifelong resident I couldn't agree more. It might help spread some of the load at Clapham Junction which seems to have a busier suburban footfall thatn Victoria.

 

[dk1]

Suggesting that every Thameslink from Cambridge or Peterborough should call at places like Welham Green, Brookmans Park, Harringay etc is bonkers.

How long are you proposing to extend journey times by?

Don’t laugh

 

[cactustwirly]

Since May 2021, TfL Rail ran all trains calling at all stations between Liverpool Street and Shenfield / Gidea Park, replacing the earlier service pattern inherited from Greater Anglia which saw trains skipping stations during peak hours.

To me, it was a massive service improvement, since commuters could board the first departing train under all circumstances at Stratford, and no longer needed to wait at the platform for the correct train. It has reduced platform overcrowding risk massively, delay recovery has become much easier, and local passengers now have a true turn-up-and-go service, instead of facing an up to 30-minute wait for a train calling at the next station down the line (e.g. Maryland to Forest Gate).

I wish this method of working can be extended to other suburban railways, for example, c2c and SWR and Thameslink. Actually, c2c once intended to do so in 2016, but under-investment of their train service (insufficient rolling stock) meant that they had to revert back to skipping stops since a true turn-up-and-go metro (every train calling at all stations between Upminster and Fenchurch Street) service attracted too many passengers for their trains despite an overall capacity gain, where on the Elizabeth line, the replacement of class 315 with class 345 was a massive capacity boost.

In the coming years, assuming that there are adequate funding for rolling stocks, which suburban lines have the greatest potential to become all trains for all stations? Is c2c going to get enough stocks to add the missing stops back in the evening peak, allowing a big growth for commuters boarding at Fenchurch Street?

You have looked at the timetable on the western end?
Elizabeth line runs peak time semi fast services to Reading which miss out a bunch of stations. Plus you have GWR skipping Slough in the peaks

Realtime Trains | 1612 Abbey Wood to Reading | 08/05/2024

Real-time train running information for 1612 departure from Abbey Wood to Reading on 08/05/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[30907]

These oddities are the thing I want to be removed, as they don't really help capacity.

Balham is an important interchange station for the Northern line to the City, as important as the West Ham stop for c2c service. All suburban trains should stop there.

And historically always have!

Having some trains call at a station but not others is a waste of line capcapacity

Yes, if maximum capacity is needed - and there are no other timetabling constraints (such as conflicting junctions).

 

[Sad Sprinter]

And historically always have

Some Mole Valley trains don’t. But otherwise everything else does. Wandsworth Commin and Battersea Park have had more strange timetables.

 

[AM9]

Using SWR and Thameslink as examples, they both have distinct service groups. Bedford - Brighton is clearly not suburban, but how about Luton - Rainham? It extends a significant distance outside the boundary but it is in the same service group as St Alban's - Sutton, which interwork with the other at Luton / St Alban's occasionally.

Comparison with Thameslink progamming is pointless:

1) the rainham service's stopping pattern is designed to give Radlett and Elstree (both outside the GLA) a slightly faster connection to West Hapmstead and the TL core stations. This is acheived by skipping Hendon, Cricklewood and Kentish Town.​

2) paths from St Albans to the core are very critical, the pinch points are at West Hampstead South junction (southbound) and the confluence of the MML TL services and ECML TL services just north of St Pancras station. The whole MML timetable is a work of art designed to balance the demands of TL metro, TL outer suburban, EM 'connect' and EM IC services also managing to provide ECS paths to and from Cricklewood sidings and freight paths between north of Luton (where most of the pressure subsides) and the freight lines at Silkstream junction for the Dudding Hill line.​

Overall, the service is quite reliable considering the opportunities for it to breakdown.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Suggesting that every Thameslink from Cambridge or Peterborough should call at places like Welham Green, Brookmans Park, Harringay etc is bonkers.

How long are you proposing to extend journey times by?

I think this makes sense for shorter commuter lines (can you imagine complex stopping patterns on the Merseyrail Ormskirk line*, for instance? Some would do it). Whereas if everything stopped everywhere between Euston and MKC you'd have a journey time of about 70 minutes which would be really unpopular.

* Southport and Chester/Ellesmere Port are *almost* long enough to justify it, though I think on balance people would go for 4tph stopping over 2 fast and 2 slow which would be the likely alternative.

 

[miklcct]

Comparison with Thameslink progamming is pointless:

1) the rainham service's stopping pattern is designed to give Radlett and Elstree (both outside the GLA) a slightly faster connection to West Hapmstead and the TL core stations. This is acheived by skipping Hendon, Cricklewood and Kentish Town.​

1. The so-called semi-fast trains are actually slow trains despite skipping 3 stations, as they can't pass a stopper. In effect it is a turn up and go service which allows the use of 12-coach trains because the 3 skipped stations have short platforms, but I don't actually see a 12-coach train being used.

2) paths from St Albans to the core are very critical, the pinch points are at West Hampstead South junction (southbound) and the confluence of the MML TL services and ECML TL services just north of St Pancras station. The whole MML timetable is a work of art designed to balance the demands of TL metro, TL outer suburban, EM 'connect' and EM IC services also managing to provide ECS paths to and from Cricklewood sidings and freight paths between north of Luton (where most of the pressure subsides) and the freight lines at Silkstream junction for the Dudding Hill line.​

Overall, the service is quite reliable considering the opportunities for it to breakdown.

The service is known to be extremely unreliable to the extent of putting off commuters, as evidenced by the frequent cancellations of Sutton loop trains, thanks to "saving" the through service from Sutton loop.

 

[AM9]

1. The so-called semi-fast trains are actually slow trains despite skipping 3 stations, as they can't pass a stopper. In effect it is a turn up and go service which allows the use of 12-coach trains because the 3 skipped stations have short platforms, but I don't actually see a 12-coach train being used.

The service is primarily to provide a direct service from north London to South-east London/North Kent which a 2 tph it does. The skipping of 3 stations gives a 5 minute saving over the slow service from St Albans and a four minute saving from Radlett to STP. For those who wish to travel to London Bridge, (quite a few given the proximity of Guy's hospital and Borough Market), there is the benefit that no change is required in the core. As far as 12-car trains go, the SE London and North Kent stations are the main reason for only using class 70/0 stock.

The service is known to be extremely unreliable to the extent of putting off commuters, as evidenced by the frequent cancellations of Sutton loop trains, thanks to "saving" the through service from Sutton loop.

You may not be aware of the history of planning Project Thameslink, but it was at the insistance of Paul Burstow MP for Sutton and Cheam and some local councillors in 2012 that resulted in the TL metro service not being turned at Blackfriars, which was used as a justification for altering the balance of class 700/0 vs 700/1 trains, i.e. ordering 5 less 12 car and five more 8 car units, (theoretically a saving of about £1.4m for 20 cars less).
As far as reliability of the service goes, most of the disruption to the core service is caused by delays on the 3rd rail network south of the river, - particularly the BML where up trains from Brighton gather delays from Gatwick northwards, which causes sequencing problems into the core. The core itself, given the special measures to maintain operation, is quite reliable for a 2-track railway carrying intensive traffic of up to 20tph in each direction. Maybe your travel on it is insufficent to appreciate that.

 

[cle]

The service is primarily to provide a direct service from north London to South-east London/North Kent which a 2 tph it does. The skipping of 3 stations gives a 5 minute saving over the slow service from St Albans and a four minute saving from Radlett to STP. For those who wish to travel to London Bridge, (quite a few given the proximity of Guy's hospital and Borough Market), there is the benefit that no change is required in the core. As far as 12-car trains go, the SE London and North Kent stations are the main reason for only using class 70/0 stock.

I have to say, I don't think it is. This 'service' is really two services - a semi from Luton to the core, and a service along the Medway to London Bridge (and I suppose, the core).

You could even splice the SE piece into two functions, a Woolwich service, and a frequency along the North Kent (knowing many can change to HS1 or Crossrail for a quicker London journey)

But I don't think this is really meant to be used for North London to SE Lonfon/Kent journeys. But of course, it can be. It's just through-running. The connections at each end are based on depot/stock moves, platform/train lengths, balanced journey times etc etc etc

Spoiler alert - no-one in any meaningful number travels from Bedford to Brighton either! But you are able to, of course - every day.


I do wonder if now that 10+ years have passed, if another go could be had at the Sutton services group.

 

[miklcct]

Spoiler alert - no-one in any meaningful number travels from Bedford to Brighton either! But you are able to, of course - every day.

Does taking Gatwick Express to Victoria, tube to St Pancras, EMR to Bedford give meaningful time saving compared to the direct train? Specifically, by boarding a departing Gatwick Express, can you arrive Bedford faster than the previous direct train?

 

[JonathanH]

Does taking Gatwick Express to Victoria, tube to St Pancras, EMR to Bedford give meaningful time saving compared to the direct train? Specifically, by boarding a departing Gatwick Express, can you arrive Bedford faster than the previous direct train?

Not quite

0958 from Brighton arrives in Bedford at 1222.

1009 from Brighton gets to Victoria at 1111. Using the Victoria Line, that will get someone on the 1145 from St Pancras which arrives in Bedford at 1225 (although that isn't an official connection).

However, I think the point being made is that few people travel from Bedford to Brighton, not that people travelling from Bedford to Brighton don't use Thameslink, because as the times suggest, it probably is easier just to get the direct train.