"Allow less time to transfer through London" problem

[extendedpaul]

I'm about to buy an advance ticket for a journey in March from Birmingham New Street through to Rainham (Kent). The train is scheduled to arrive at Euston at 20.23 and I am then given a reservation on the 21.25 from St Pancras International to Rainham. More than an hour for this transfer seems excessive as it can be done in well under 30 minutes. I've managed 9!

If I tick the box "allow less time to transfer through London" on the National Rail Enquiries website I am transferred to the 20.55 service from St Pancras which is what I would prefer. However no matter which rail company I then choose to buy the ticket, the booked train from St Pancras reverts to 21.25. Is there a way round this, and if there is no way of actually reducing the transfer time why does NRE offer the option and a result ?

I know from past experience that there is no problem travelling earlier in these circumstances on Southeastern providing it is on a through ticket but it does seem illogical that it can't be booked from an offered itinerary.

 

[Clip]

have a try with this site https://raileasy.trainsplit.com/?brand=railukforums

 

[robbeech]

The easiest way would be to book the tickets separately. This may be the same price, or a higher price, or potentially a lower price but very unlikely.
Bear in mind that if you don’t leave the minimum connection time then you wouldn’t be eligible to catch the next service in theory.
And itsvthe minimum connection time that is stopping you here. It’s 15 minutes at each station i think. Then an amount it time to transfer between them. Your connection of 32 minutes clearly falls foul of this. Had the timetable had trains at 2040 and 2110 you might have got an itinerary for the 2110 as that might have just been within the time. You’d have probably understood why you’d not be given one for the 2040 though. In this instance it’s just down to the timetabling.

 

[talldave]

There are no reservations on St Pancras International to Rainham services??

 

[robbeech]

im Not familiar with their reservations / lack of but if this is the case then I fail to see how getting the earlier train by default would be a problem. Will your ticket specifically state the 2125 or will it be a “and connections” style thing?

 

[Clip]

There are no reservations on St Pancras International to Rainham services??

I think they do counted places on SET now

 

[Kite159]

Try changing the website it sends you to, Webtis websites tend to hold the reduced connection.

(They do for me when I get VT+ connection tickets although you will lose ability to select your seat)

 

[extendedpaul]

There are reservations from St Pancras now, and from Victoria too, and the tickets do specify the booked service.That became the case when Southeastern introduced their own advance tickets a couple of years ago. Separate tickets are more expensive. I understand the minimum connection times but what baffles me is why National Rail Enquiries will give an itinerary with a reduced connection but not apparently allow it to be purchased. Advice on which websites may hold the reduced connection would be most welcome as I'm not aware which ones have the specific Allow less time to cross London facility which is on National Rail Enquiries.

 

[iphone76]

Does the train company have a telephone booking line you could call and book the tickets from? They may be able to override the system so you can get booked onto the service you want. (Or perhaps provide a cover note to allow you on the earlier train). I'm not sure if this would be possible.

 

[extendedpaul]

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions received. I will book the ticket with the 62 minutes connection and simply travel on the previous service from St Pancras if I get there in time, which I have done before with no problem whatsoever. That isn't really the issue. My post was intended primarily to air the purpose of an option on the National Rail Enquiries website which cannot apparently be followed through with a ticket purchase on the suggested itinerary

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm about to buy an advance ticket for a journey in March from Birmingham New Street through to Rainham (Kent). The train is scheduled to arrive at Euston at 20.23 and I am then given a reservation on the 21.25 from St Pancras International to Rainham. More than an hour for this transfer seems excessive as it can be done in well under 30 minutes. I've managed 9!

If I tick the box "allow less time to transfer through London" on the National Rail Enquiries website I am transferred to the 20.55 service from St Pancras which is what I would prefer. However no matter which rail company I then choose to buy the ticket, the booked train from St Pancras reverts to 21.25. Is there a way round this, and if there is no way of actually reducing the transfer time why does NRE offer the option and a result ?

I know from past experience that there is no problem travelling earlier in these circumstances on Southeastern providing it is on a through ticket but it does seem illogical that it can't be booked from an offered itinerary.

The minimum connection time between Euston and St Pancras at that time of day is 15+10+15 = 40 minutes.

This is why the ticketing sites won’t sell you the journey with a 22 minute connection. The railway does not guarantee you will make that connection, and you will not be protected if the connection fails, and you will not be eligible for delay repay etc etc.

I expect the idea of “allow less time through London” is intended for people simply already holding a through, flexible ticket planning itineraries to their own tastes. Shouldn’t really invite you to buy a ticket when they know full well they won’t be purchasable.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions received. I will book the ticket with the 62 minutes connection and simply travel on the previous service from St Pancras if I get there in time, which I have done before with no problem whatsoever.

This is fine as long as you do not receive a reservation or counted place on the SE service. If you do receive a reservation or counted place then you need to stick to that time train or risk being asked to pay again.

 

[extendedpaul]

This is fine as long as you do not receive a reservation or counted place on the SE service. If you do receive a reservation or counted place then you need to stick to that time train or risk being asked to pay again.

The minimum connection time between Euston and St Pancras at that time of day is 15+10+15 = 40 minutes.

This is why the ticketing sites won’t sell you the journey with a 22 minute connection. The railway does not guarantee you will make that connection, and you will not be protected if the connection fails, and you will not be eligible for delay repay etc etc.

I expect the idea of “allow less time through London” is intended for people simply already holding a through, flexible ticket planning itineraries to their own tastes. Shouldn’t really invite you to buy a ticket when they know full well they won’t be purchasable.

Thank you, that makes sense, though we seem to agree there should not be a price and itinerary for an advance ticket, with a reasonable time between Euston and St Pancras, when it cannot be purchased

I have had 45-65 minute connections between Euston and St Pancras several times. On the first two occasions I showed the ticket to a member of the gateline staff at St Pancras and was waved through. When I spoke to a train conductor he confirmed that early travel was unofficially permitted on a through ticket but not on a Southeastern advance. I do think it would be poor customer service to make a customer wait an extra half hour to complete their travel, perhaps late in the evening, in these circumstances, particularly given that the customer had no choice in the timing of that part of their overall journey.

 

[AlterEgo]

we seem to agree there should not be a price and itinerary for an advance ticket, with a reasonable time between Euston and St Pancras, when it cannot be purchased

Agreed, this is unnecessary confusion and sets an expectation that cannot be delivered.

 

[Starmill]

I expect the idea of “allow less time through London” is intended for people simply already holding a through, flexible ticket planning itineraries to their own tastes.

I have to say this makes no sense. Why would the option be included in NRE if it meant that tickets could not be sold?

If I had an itinerary from NRE, I would expect that to be guaranteed by the NRCToT in the usual and compensation to be paid against it. There is no indication that these do not apply when you check this box.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have to say this makes no sense. Why would the option be included in NRE if it meant that tickets could not be sold?

If I had an itinerary from NRE, I would expect that to be guaranteed by the NRCToT in the usual and compensation to be paid against it. There is no indication that these do not apply when you check this box.

You tell me - the tickets cannot and will not be sold by a retailer with such a short connection time. Try it.

On the second point, I accept your point is sound, though I cannot find anything relevant in the NRCoT to supplement it. Maybe I am looking in the wrong area.

 

[Starmill]

You tell me - the tickets cannot and will not be sold by a retailer with such a short connection time. Try it.

What's that got to do with it? Have you never looked up times / prices (I always did this before BRfares) on NRE and then gone to a ticket machine to purchase?

 

[AlterEgo]

What's that got to do with it? Have you never looked up times / prices (I always did this before BRfares) on NRE and then gone to a ticket machine to purchase?

That’s not “selling the tickets with such a short connection time”.

My point is, a journey planner or retail site will not sell you a ticket if you give it that itinerary. You will not get a booking confirmation showing those are the trains you’re booked on.

Your secondary point about you expecting protection and delay repay etc, where NRE has given you an itinerary but *not* sold you a ticket, is fair enough, and I agree - yet I cannot find anything in the NRCoT about itineraries from NRE or booking engines, though I may be looking in the wrong area.

 

[Starmill]

I'm not sure what you're really looking for? Does it matter if / who sold it? I agree this could have significant contract law implications which I guess is what you're getting at.

If you took an NRE printout or showed it on your phone at a ticket office and said "Can I have a ticket for this journey please?" I am sure they would be happy to sell the ticket, and I can't see how that would not be the same as if you'd bought it online with that itinerary.

In the case of NRE, it's either a valid travel itinerary or it's not. Or is there a lack of clear definition of the meaning of valid travel itinerary too?

 

[gray1404]

Sounds like NRE provides unofficial itinerarys for people who wish to cross London faster but will not go on to sell a ticket with such timings.

 

[Starmill]

Sounds like NRE provides unofficial itinerarys for people who wish to cross London faster but will not go on to sell a ticket with such timings.

The trouble with that is that there's no evidence it's 'unofficial'...

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm not sure what you're really looking for? Does it matter if / who sold it? I agree this could have significant contract law implications which I guess is what you're getting at.

If you took an NRE printout or showed it on your phone at a ticket office and said "Can I have a ticket for this journey please?" I am sure they would be happy to sell the ticket, and I can't see how that would not be the same as if you'd bought it online with that itinerary.

In the case of NRE, it's either a valid travel itinerary or it's not. Or is there a lack of clear definition of the meaning of valid travel itinerary too?

Okay, so to be more clear. It does matter in some respects who sold it and how.

If you just buy an open or flexible ticket without an itinerary, then you’re at liberty to do whatever you want and the railway has not promised or guaranteed any fixed itinerary. It’s up to you, the customer, to ensure you abide by the rules, however you choose to find out about them. If you try and do a 3 minute connection at New Street to something like that, on your head be it. The railway isn’t going to sell you a ticket against that itinerary because the railway isn’t going to promise it’ll work and they aren’t carrying the can if it doesn’t work out.

If you are sold a ticket where you are also given a booking confirmation or something else like reservations dictating the times the railway expects you to travel, then you have a contract to travel at those times and you can reasonably expect the railway to deliver that journey. The railway cannot turn around and say what you were sold was wrong, and you are protected against them denying you onward transport or compensation.

If you took a printout from NRE and asked for a ticket “for this journey” it would depend on a number of things. Let’s take the example of crossing London in a very short space of time.
They might just sell you an open ticket between origin and destination, with no seat reservations. In this example I am not sure you are protected. If they give you seat reservations or counted places, or better still an itinerary slip with your tickets, you’re bulletproof.

As far as valid travel itineraries go, Condition 20 says:

If your journey requires a change of trains, you must allow suffcient time to make your connection when selecting the trains you wish to use. Train times shown at www.nationalrail.co.uk or on any journey plan provided by a Train Company or Licenced Retailer will allow suffcient time for making your change of trains. You can also ask for advice on this when purchasing your Ticket at a station.

This leaves us with a dilemma about what this condition entitles you to. It does not explicitly say; it only says you must allow “sufficient time”. It doesn’t specifically refer to itineraries, though it probably intends to. It just says “train times”. It does not say what happens if you do not leave sufficient time.

It is very unclear.

 

[AlterEgo]

The trouble with that is that there's no evidence it's 'unofficial'...

Indeed, basically they provide the itinerary but it is impossible to sell a ticket against it as their suggestion fouls all the minimum connection times. I’m surprised I’ve never come across this before actually.

It’s a bad situation.

 

[paul1609]

If its any consolation to the OP my situation is even worse because I rely on a once an hour connection to Marshlink at Ashford International. The journey planners will often have me sitting in St Pancras for 1 hr 30 mins plus.

 

[158756]

Why does the minimum connection time for both stations count? You're only making one connection (well, unless you use the tube, but you wouldn't usually have much trouble at 9pm) - it doesn't take 15 minutes to walk in off the street at St Pancras with a ticket and get on the train. You obviously need to leave some time at each station (e.g 5 minutes would be sensible if you were making a connection using Walton and Rice Lane or something) but there are not the same issues with transferring from the train to walking than train to train or any other timetabled transport.

 

[bigfoote]

I would guess, and am happy to be corrected, that it's due in part to layout of the station, and possibly being some distance from the underground entrance to the platform. For those people who may not be used to London, it can take a minute to orientate yourself.

 

[Wirewiper]

The issue is whether the 21.25 departure from St Pancras International is reserved on a "Booked Train Only" basis, or if it is purely the suggested connection for the purpose of providing you with a printed timetable. If the latter, there is nothing to stop you taking the earlier train if you get to the station in time and wish to do so.

 

[extendedpaul]

The issue is whether the 21.25 departure from St Pancras International is reserved on a "Booked Train Only" basis, or if it is purely the suggested connection for the purpose of providing you with a printed timetable. If the latter, there is nothing to stop you taking the earlier train if you get to the station in time and wish to do so.

Just to confirm again, the 21.25 is reserved on a Booked Train Only basis and my ticket states only available for travel on that service. Taking an earlier train is not permitted officially but allowed in my experience because the gateline staff at St Pancras Intl aren't so unreasonable to make a passenger hang around unnecessarily for an extra half hour or longer to complete their journey. While I now understand the rationale, I still consider that 32 minutes to get from Euston to St Pancras is more than adequate, and the minimum 40 minutes connection time required for a ticket to be sold which includes a journey between these stations is excessive. 20 or 30 minutes would be a realistic minimum.

 

[Hadders]

Just to confirm again, the 21.25 is reserved on a Booked Train Only basis and my ticket states only available for travel on that service. Taking an earlier train is not permitted officially but allowed in my experience because the gateline staff at St Pancras Intl aren't so unreasonable to make a passenger hang around unnecessarily for an extra half hour or longer to complete their journey. While I now understand the rationale, I still consider that 32 minutes to get from Euston to St Pancras is more than adequate, and the minimum 40 minutes connection time required for a ticket to be sold which includes a journey between these stations is excessive. 20 or 30 minutes would be a realistic minimum.

The minimum connection time has to allow for a passenger arriving at the country end of of platform 18 at Euston to get to the far end of platform 13 at St Pancras. You know where you’re going and will probably be able to walk at a fast pace but the interchange time has to allow for someone walking a little slower then average who might have luggage or children with them.

Many people unfamiliar with rail travel would say the interchange times are too short. I don’t agree with this bit you need to understand that they have to be suitable for the majority of passengers, not the few who can do the copposite nnection much quicker.

 

[takno]

The minimum connection time has to allow for a passenger arriving at the country end of of platform 18 at Euston to get to the far end of platform 13 at St Pancras. You know where you’re going and will probably be able to walk at a fast pace but the interchange time has to allow for someone walking a little slower then average who might have luggage or children with them.

Many people unfamiliar with rail travel would say the interchange times are too short. I don’t agree with this bit you need to understand that they have to be suitable for the majority of passengers, not the few who can do the copposite nnection much quicker.

That makes sense for the default, but it's not sensible to leave essentially no way to book what is an entirely achievable journey for the many passengers who have been to London before and aren't encumbered by 8 suitcases and a brood of screaming children